February 24, 2023 - 7:15am
On Thursday UnHerd‘s Executive Editor Freddie Sayers appeared on the BBC’s Politics Live to discuss the war in Ukraine and the response of Europe and the United States, one year after Russia’s invasion.
Asked by host Jo Coburn if Western unity on the conflict was a good thing, he said:
I think that unity is understandable given the incredible amount of suffering going on in Ukraine, but no, I don’t think it is a good thing. I think it is dangerous when all the parties agree and when there is no discussion. It almost feels like discussion is not allowed on this topic. If anyone ventures any kind of hesitation about the Western plans in Ukraine, they are very quickly dismissed as a Putin apologist or an appeaser: that kind of rhetoric comes out. Good people, who are very compassionate about the outrageous invasion happening in Ukraine, can legitimately ask: what is the endgame, what is the long-term strategy of the Western powers, are there escalation risks? […] Those would be fair questions, I think, and I would like to hear more about how this ends and less of a certainty about how we can up the ante all the time.
- Freddie Sayers
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SubscribeWell done, Freddie. You were outnumbered 3:1 but you held your own. I hope the bruises heal soon.
This short debate encapsulated the situation quite well, imo. The UK establishment are strongly pro-Ukraine and, as one speaker said, nothing is off the table. But don’t worry, concerns such as those raised by Freddie are being seriously considered in private (trust us on that), just don’t dare disagree in public.
For me, the most interesting part of this debate occurred at the end when Freddie argued that this war has catalyzed a geopolitical realignment, and that, perhaps, the West will soon no longer be as large or important as it once was. Paul Mason acknowledged this possibility then waffled about what this realignment means or what the UK might do about it. In fairness to Mr. Mason the issue of geopolitical realignment is so complex he could hardly be expected to say much of substance in such a limited format.
I was struck by how parochial this myopic focus on Ukraine now seems. Huge global realignments are now underway and Ukraine is only a part. The speakers seemed to think the UK will be a prime mover in these changes, but it will be the US, and China and its allies that shape the future. Yet another reason for the West (let’s be honest, it’s really the US we’re talking about here) to control the Ukraine situation and turn its attention to the bigger picture.
”The UK establishment are strongly pro-Ukraine”
Hahahaaa
So they destroy it because they love it? Biden and his Boris have destroyed Ukraine by meddling in what was none of their business. They destroy the Global economy to do it.
The destruction of Ukraine is 100% ”Collateral Damage” that their Evil Proxy war is causing. This is NOT about Ukraine – Ukraine just happens to be the chess board Biden and Boris play their game on. Million deaths ultimately? They care nothing for that. They are up to something, and it is nothng to do with Freedom.
”The UK establishment are strongly pro-Ukraine”
Hahahaaa
So they destroy it because they love it? Biden and his Boris have destroyed Ukraine by meddling in what was none of their business. They destroy the Global economy to do it.
The destruction of Ukraine is 100% ”Collateral Damage” that their Evil Proxy war is causing. This is NOT about Ukraine – Ukraine just happens to be the chess board Biden and Boris play their game on. Million deaths ultimately? They care nothing for that. They are up to something, and it is nothng to do with Freedom.
Well done, Freddie. You were outnumbered 3:1 but you held your own. I hope the bruises heal soon.
This short debate encapsulated the situation quite well, imo. The UK establishment are strongly pro-Ukraine and, as one speaker said, nothing is off the table. But don’t worry, concerns such as those raised by Freddie are being seriously considered in private (trust us on that), just don’t dare disagree in public.
For me, the most interesting part of this debate occurred at the end when Freddie argued that this war has catalyzed a geopolitical realignment, and that, perhaps, the West will soon no longer be as large or important as it once was. Paul Mason acknowledged this possibility then waffled about what this realignment means or what the UK might do about it. In fairness to Mr. Mason the issue of geopolitical realignment is so complex he could hardly be expected to say much of substance in such a limited format.
I was struck by how parochial this myopic focus on Ukraine now seems. Huge global realignments are now underway and Ukraine is only a part. The speakers seemed to think the UK will be a prime mover in these changes, but it will be the US, and China and its allies that shape the future. Yet another reason for the West (let’s be honest, it’s really the US we’re talking about here) to control the Ukraine situation and turn its attention to the bigger picture.
Freddie was far too passive – coming across as nice rather than there for a debate. When Paul Mason likens the situation to pre-WWII Europe this should have been mocked for the false equivalence it is: this is a completely different situation (Nuclear weapons, drones and Nazism to name but a few). No war today is really “like” the second world war, or even the Cold War – until NATO has a comparably powerful adversary nothing will. It is to his credit that he held his own against the 3 unlimited war hawks but it isn’t enough to hold your own when (as Freddie says) there is unanimity among the major parties and no public conversation happening about where the line is drawn.
I also think that Paul Mason should have been taken to task when he said that the Labour party supports NATO. The current leader supported for PM somebody who has campaigned for not only the UK to leave the organisation but for it to be disbanded. Would we have been in such a role of European leadership in the war under a Corbyn-led government (with Keir Starmer in cabinet)?
Paul Mason’s support for Starmer is the best evidence that the latter’s supposed conversion to centrism is entirely fraudulent.
Paul Mason’s support for Starmer is the best evidence that the latter’s supposed conversion to centrism is entirely fraudulent.
Freddie was far too passive – coming across as nice rather than there for a debate. When Paul Mason likens the situation to pre-WWII Europe this should have been mocked for the false equivalence it is: this is a completely different situation (Nuclear weapons, drones and Nazism to name but a few). No war today is really “like” the second world war, or even the Cold War – until NATO has a comparably powerful adversary nothing will. It is to his credit that he held his own against the 3 unlimited war hawks but it isn’t enough to hold your own when (as Freddie says) there is unanimity among the major parties and no public conversation happening about where the line is drawn.
I also think that Paul Mason should have been taken to task when he said that the Labour party supports NATO. The current leader supported for PM somebody who has campaigned for not only the UK to leave the organisation but for it to be disbanded. Would we have been in such a role of European leadership in the war under a Corbyn-led government (with Keir Starmer in cabinet)?
I saw a small group of journalists, talking heads, and nobody-politicians discussing a military matter about which none of them knows anything worth knowing.
To me this epitomises the pointlessness and futility of such discussions. Where were the people of relevant knowledge? Where were the people who might have something of substance to add to the conversation? Where were the uniforms? Where were the military?
I don’t see how any bunch of wittering politicos and journos can have a more meaningful discussion about this than any three or four people around any kitchen table.
The military Leaders are useless – they are the enemy really.
Now days all military promotion beyond Major is 100% Political. Generals and Admirals are a sick cross between Deep State/Swamp/and Uniparty Shills.
Every one who does not sell their soul to the dark side does not get promoted and retires at rank low enough they have no effect on policy.
Diversity and Equity? Trans in Uniform? contracting military spending to companies well connected politically? The current heads of the Military are great at that.
War-fighting? May as well have that silly person in the yellow top in charge.
The military Leaders are useless – they are the enemy really.
Now days all military promotion beyond Major is 100% Political. Generals and Admirals are a sick cross between Deep State/Swamp/and Uniparty Shills.
Every one who does not sell their soul to the dark side does not get promoted and retires at rank low enough they have no effect on policy.
Diversity and Equity? Trans in Uniform? contracting military spending to companies well connected politically? The current heads of the Military are great at that.
War-fighting? May as well have that silly person in the yellow top in charge.
I saw a small group of journalists, talking heads, and nobody-politicians discussing a military matter about which none of them knows anything worth knowing.
To me this epitomises the pointlessness and futility of such discussions. Where were the people of relevant knowledge? Where were the people who might have something of substance to add to the conversation? Where were the uniforms? Where were the military?
I don’t see how any bunch of wittering politicos and journos can have a more meaningful discussion about this than any three or four people around any kitchen table.
Great job Freddie. The other thing to mention about “the West” is that Putin knows full well that the West is fractured because of its massive ideological culture wars and is smart enough to be able to use this (as to mock the woke excesses, particularly gender) to his advantage, in convincing masses of people in Russia that the West has lost the plot, and therefore any of our counterarguments and opinions are invalid. This is not a minor thing. Putin might be living as one of the speakers said “in a different universe”, but this doesn’t mean he is stupid.
Great job Freddie. The other thing to mention about “the West” is that Putin knows full well that the West is fractured because of its massive ideological culture wars and is smart enough to be able to use this (as to mock the woke excesses, particularly gender) to his advantage, in convincing masses of people in Russia that the West has lost the plot, and therefore any of our counterarguments and opinions are invalid. This is not a minor thing. Putin might be living as one of the speakers said “in a different universe”, but this doesn’t mean he is stupid.
What Happened to the Liberal Anti-War Left?
Freddy asks – If you do not know you only watch Liberal Left MSM and Social Media. Evil is what happened – they are out to destroy the existing world order. The economy, Rights and Freedoms. From the destruction of family, community, National Unity, mental health, society, religion, borders, individual self sfficency to government handout dependency, destroying love – making men and women not bond for life – but just be confused, alone, weak, depressed, ignorant, filed with lies and immorality….You Know – You see it….in the schools universities, on the streets.
F – THIS WICKED AND EVIL WAR!!! NOT ONE MORE PENNY! PEACE NOW! Pouring gas on this dumpster fire is insane.
F-The War, Peace Now, Not one more penny! Funding this war is funding the destruction of the world as it was – and bringing in the new world order – and that is Not Good.
What Happened to the Liberal Anti-War Left?
Freddy asks – If you do not know you only watch Liberal Left MSM and Social Media. Evil is what happened – they are out to destroy the existing world order. The economy, Rights and Freedoms. From the destruction of family, community, National Unity, mental health, society, religion, borders, individual self sfficency to government handout dependency, destroying love – making men and women not bond for life – but just be confused, alone, weak, depressed, ignorant, filed with lies and immorality….You Know – You see it….in the schools universities, on the streets.
F – THIS WICKED AND EVIL WAR!!! NOT ONE MORE PENNY! PEACE NOW! Pouring gas on this dumpster fire is insane.
F-The War, Peace Now, Not one more penny! Funding this war is funding the destruction of the world as it was – and bringing in the new world order – and that is Not Good.