The so-called lab-leak hypothesis for the origins of Covid-19 has been gaining more and more traction in recent months. Once dismissed as a crankish fringe theory, it has slowly been entering into mainstream scientific discussion. Just this week, America’s CDC Director said that it was ‘possible’ that Covid could have leaked from a lab as ‘significant circumstantial evidence’ emerges.
One analyst who has made a significant contribution to the debate is Nicholas Wade, a former reporter at the New York Times, who recently self-published a piece detailing how the lab-leak theory isn’t just a possibility, it is (in his view) the most likely explanation. Though there is no definitive evidence for either theory, Wade argues that the key details are easier to explain within the context of a lab leak origin, as he tells Freddie Sayers on LockdownTV:
The whole idea [of the natural emergence theory] rests on a single conjecture: that it followed in the track of SARS-1 and MERS, and the many other viruses that have jumped from animals. But there is no direct evidence for natural emergence…There is no trace of SARS-2 emerging in the natural environment in the same pattern as SARS-1.
- Nicholas Wade, UnHerd
On the the lack of evidence:
When the WHO commission went to Beijing it seemed at first sight a propaganda victory for the Chinese because they kept on saying, “well, lab escape is ridiculous, we’re hardly going to even consider it”. What was also clear was that the Chinese had not been able to provide a shred of evidence in favour of the natural emergence hypothesis. So each month that goes by and you have no more evidence of natural emergence theory that makes you have to consider the lab escape hypothesis more strongly.
- Nicholas Wade, UnHerd
On the Chinese cover-up:
The Chinese authorities are controlling very carefully all information that comes out. So basically, they’ve put a seal on all information… all Chinese databases concerning bat viruses have been made inaccessible… I think there’s a sort of pattern to what the Chinese authorities are doing. And this means because they’re locking down all information in general, I think it’s not illogical to assume that all the information they do put out is really for a purpose.
- Nicholas Wade, UnHerd
Why won’t virologists speak out?
It would have been very dangerous for them. Because unfortunately, we don’t have free speech on academic campuses anymore. And for virologists, their careers depend on being awarded grants by other virologists. The way grants are distributed both in the US and the UK, is through a peer review committee of expert virologists who review the grant applications from other virologists. So if you step out of line, and if you say that SARS-2 may have escaped from the lab, then good luck on getting your grant renewed.
- Nicholas Wade, UnHerd
On Facebook’s role:
Facebook’s behaviour has been quite amazing. It’s almost as if they’re under the control of the Chinese government because my article also had a message directing readers to a Chinese propaganda site. I was quite astounded that Facebook would behave in this way. And it shows the severe limitations of its present system for addressing the content it carries.
- Nicholas Wade, UnHerd
How did the lab leak happen?
Scientists were trying to get a jump ahead of nature by trying to predict what tweaks might be needed to make an animal virus a human pathogen. So they tried to recapitulate these steps in the lab, which is highly dangerous. If you succeed, then you’ve got a dangerous pathogen.
- Nicholas Wade, UnHerd
On the so-called ‘Bat Lady’, Dr Shi Zhengli:
She’s well known in China for collecting these bat viruses, which she’s been doing for 20 years or so. During the course of her work on these bat viruses, she went to work with Ralph Baric in North Carolina, who’s the leading American expert on coronaviruses. He had developed a technique of transferring spike proteins from one virus to another to make them more infective for the purpose of trying to predict future outbreaks. So she and Baric published a paper in 2015, in which they generated a novel virus. Scientists call this a chimera, because it’s a mixture of two genomes. They generated a chimera virus that had the property of infecting humans.
- Nicholas Wade, UnHerd
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SubscribeJust as Courage is the name of all the virtues when things come to the pinch and count; so Cowardice is the chief characteristic of human behaviour in our very degenerate age.
Whether the coronavirus escaped from the lab, or travelled across animal species and thence to humans via the foul Farmers Markets from Hell in China, where too many people still indulge their liking for wild animals stuffed into cages cheek by jowl with one another, the prime fact is that this is the fourth such virus China has unleashed on the world since the turn of the century.
And not one government or politician has yet denounced it – with the exception of Donald Trump (hurriedly ejected from office in very peculiar circumstances).
IS NOTHING TO BE LEARNED FROM THIS EPISODE?
Do we just settle down as craven little suppliants and go through one pandemic after another – Covid-19, Covid-22, Covid-25, Covid-28, Covid-30 &c &c?
When does Freddy interview some hot-shot liability lawyer? Like if my father drank from a bottle of imported Coke, and choked to death on a mouse skeleton that had gotten in during the bottling process – could I sue? And for how much? What is ‘Legal Peril’
We all wait for real growth in the economy, and I wonder if this avenue of lawsuite over, what must be 10,000 different kinds of liability, seems like the next likely super Growth industry.
Can one sue the school system for denying the kid an education? The arbitrary lockdown harms? The loss of paid travel, and on and on a thousand times.
Then the other side ‘they made my mother go to work and she died of covid’…..In the remarkably litigious USA I cannot believe TV is not half advertisements for some ‘Saul Goodman’, ‘if you suffered from the covid lockdown, or from covid, or from lack of locking down for covid, or emotional distress from lockdown, or from not locking down, CALL 222 222 2222 for a free consultation, no fees till your case is won! Call NOW!!!
This is not happening, so Freddy needs to have a guest to ask why – as it really wonder what the deal is.
“(hurriedly ejected from office in very peculiar circumstances).”
What? After an election?
What rot. Nothing else you ever say can be taken seriously.
That election was corrupted – proof of which is that all attempts to have its many large irregularities investigated have simply been vetoed. And that in a country which, confronted by a far flimsier Russian dossier, went to enormous lengths to have the allegations against Trump gone through with a fine-tooth comb over the course of two years by a Special Counsel and a top team of lawyers, at giant expense.
Knob.
Thank you both for this excellent interview. Even though I already read mr. Wade’s article before, this interview, by making a very accessible summary, brought further insight. Thank you both even more (and some others like Bret Weinstein and Ian Birrell) for having the courage and perseverance for opening up a debate from a journalistic vantage point that scientific institutions and communities until very recently simply refused. It proofs that truly free journalism and public debate is indispensable, and that we should not close subjects once “science” has spoken (there is no such thing as “academia locuta, causa finita”, as some would like us to think).
This has scary parallels to the scientific discussion around climate change. Anyone that suggests you have an open discussion about the models and science is immediately branded and there is no way to get funding for supporting investigating alternative theories and data. Science is not supposed to be about the majority OPINION but rather a transparent review of data and the conclusions it suggests. The whole point is to keep trying to refute the current theory Which either makes it stronger or lowers its importance. Science is never settled by majority OPINION.
Not quite the same, though similar. Adherence to the global warming narrative puts you on the side of the angels, adherence to the “jumped from animals” position just gets you off the hook.
Excellent, balanced interview. Thank you.
Obviously it’s a Duck.
You can get banned from Youtube for saying such things. Fact-checkers would point out that no matter how many duck like qualities it has, it is only a duck when they say it is a duck, and currently the fact-checkers find it is not a duck.
Only if the CCP say it’s a duck
… or, more importantly, the MSS …
Methinks it is like a weasel.
Doctor Theresa Tam, Canada’s incompetent chief Public Health Officer, and herself a Chinese immigrant from Hong Kong, said “”I don’t think we’ve seen any specific information to say this is a laboratory accident or release, but at the same time we don’t know the exact origins of this virus.” Of course, this is quite false. As Wade indicates there is simply a massive amount of evidence to show that this was a laboratory release. This was an apparently neutral statement that actually was an apologia for the Chinese Communist government. This should perhaps not be surprising given that the Canadian PM, Justin Trudeau has identified the People’s Republic of China as the foreign government he admires most in the world. Also, he treasured his status as the global leader of the anti-Trump resistance movement, so if Trump thought that COVID-19 came from a lab he would want his chief Public Health Officer to say there was no evidence whatsoever that it did. In his mind, Tam’s bizarre statement wouldn’t disqualify her for the office she occupies. On the contrary, it would be another confirmation that she is just the woman for the job.
Not only Dr. Tam has discredited herself, she’s effectively decimated the meaning of a public health official, time and again.
Scientists maintain lab books as a record of their work. Since it is credible that the Wuhan Center might have been working on coronaviruses, a relatively simple check would be for investigators to access and review the lab books for Wuhan scientists. So far I haven’t seen any statements that this has happened.
Why would you expect this to ever happen: the CCP has removed all traces of notebooks!!
Good work Freddie Sayers, I believe you have been following the ins and outs of Covid, the pros and cons of lockdown, etc etc. I think you may have scored a home run here. I hope you have.
Well, take a look at this:
“Top CCP Advisor: China Won the ‘Biological War’ of 2020 and Will Lead the New Modernization After “the Biology Revolution””
https://www.jenniferzengblog.com/home/2021/5/20/top-ccp-advisor-china-won-the-biological-war-of-2020-and-will-lead-the-new-modernization-after-the-biology-revolution
Another excellent , thought provoking and also worrying interview. Freddie is such a brilliant interviewer, calm and coherent and always checking he, and therefore we have correctly understood what the expert is saying. Thank you .We need more interviewers like Freddie Sayers !
In 2017, Moderna was working on 4 mRNA vaccines, one of which was not disclosed. Extract from 2017 article:
“the company is moving through the first phase of clinical trials: two target strains of influenza, a third is for Zika virus, and the fourth remains a secret.”
From the start, Moderna’s scientists knew that using mRNA to spur protein production would be a tough task, so they scoured the medical literature for diseases that might be treated with just small amounts of additional protein.
“And that list of diseases is very, very short,” said the former employee who described Bancel as needing a Hail Mary.
https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/
What wasn’t discussed was why the theory was abandoned and derided in the first place ? Why the WSJ and other MSM did not pursue this vehemently? How much culpability belongs to the MSM for being lazy and political.l? Why should we ever trust them? How much blame have they accepted for their own poor journalism? Shame on them for letting the public & their profession down.
A surprising and increasing number of commentators and participants on UnHerd seem to believe that Donald Trump didn’t lose the last election. Take note.
Thank you both for the interview and Nicholas for the excellent piece in Medium.
It brought to mind those t*t-for-tats between US and China last year regarding who was to blame for Covid-19 – in particular the counterclaim from the Chinese side that the virus could have been brought to China from the USA – frozen meat was mentioned.
I thought at the time this was uncharacteristically inept coming from the normally fine-tuned diplomacy one associates with the centuries-long mandarin tradition of how to “lie for your country” most effectively. More like school playground than Machiavelli!
However I am now minded to think it could have been a cleverly coded reminder from the Chinese side that they held this very big joker in their hand. The rest of us useful idiots would disregard it as part of the general silliness of the time but those in the know would understand the message which was, play dirty with us but remember you’ll be doubly in the do-dos when we leak that the frozen meat referred to metaphorically stood in for humanised mice, furin insertion, loadsamoney and expertise et al that were all part of our joint enterprise..
A plausible scenario or what?