Interesting article. The author misses out half of Italy, the south, which is almost like a different country. I lived right on the south coast for a while, Taranto, and they seemed to see themselves more like Greeks than Italians. I don’t even remember a special day, an Armistice Day: it must have been very low key.
For mini-breaks we often visited Naples. Armistice day or it’s equivalent was on the Sunday preceding 11 November and there were flowers everywhere with many people in black (not meaning blackshirts). It was like a national day of mourning.
An excellent observation. From my understanding, there’s a pretty sharp difference in ethnicity between the south and the north. In America, when we think of ‘Italians’, we’re probably thinking of the southern type, tanned skin, dark hair, etc, because most Italian American immigrants, including those who became known for their organized crime syndicates came from southern Italy or Sicily. As I was explaining to my mother at one point when we were watching something on TV and she commented on how some fellow doesn’t look Italian at all, people from Northern Italy look basically like any generic white person.
Yep. A long time ago, southern Italy was a Greek colony; it still uses the name Magna Grecia. In Taranto there are Ancient Greek ruins under the city, which have been exposed as places to visit. Those in N.Italy look down on people from the South as lazy grifters – which perhaps explains the gangster connections.
very true. The same for Northern Italians mentality which is closer to Northern Europe countries than Southern Europe ones.
Anna Bramwell
2 months ago
I don’t think it’s controversial to call Tito’s massacres of Italians ethnic cleansing, or even genocide.. The author shouldn’t be too nervous about saying such things. This is Unherd, not…any other out,et.
One good turn deserves another. I suspect Tito had that in mind.
mac mahmood
2 months ago
Siena’s Palio is an example of a splintered community uniting in a common venture.
Dee Harris
2 months ago
They make great coffee tho’.
Pete Marsh
2 months ago
“the Risiera di San Sabba became one of the country’s central exhibits of remembrance: this red-brick rice warehouse was a concentration camp, where political and Jewish prisoners were either murdered or transported to Nazi extermination camps. The Risiera, it’s thought, was responsible for the deaths of up to 5,000 people”
Deportations of Italian Jews to Germany didn’t happen under Mussolini’s Fascist government. It would have happened after Germany occupied north Italy when Italy surrendered in 1943. Prior to the Pact of Steel in 1939 Jews could join the fascist party, and many did.
It’s one reason why conflating fascism with national socialism is historically lazy and inaccurate.
Great post.
Either author doesn’t know Italian history or purposefully ignores it to make his point.
If commies took over in Italy numbers of killed in Risiera would be at least 20 times higher.
Many problems in Italy are due to unified country being so young.
There was not even standard Italian language understood by majority of people.
It took long time for Florentine dielect to become basis of Italian language.
Problem with commemorating anything is not helped by Italians starting and ending wars on different side.
They are not exactly most reliable allies.
Some would argue they are cowards.
Supported by Italian army “performance” in wars.
My brother worked for Fiat.
Many senior people there argued where Europe stops and Africa starts.
40 years ago many said south of Rome.
20 years ago, it was north of Rome.
Now it is not far south of Florence.
It did not help that Italians opted for Euro.
Hardly any GDP growth in 25 years.
Don’t you just love 4th Reich (sorry EU).
Tyler Durden
2 months ago
Just a brilliant article- chapeau
Gio
2 months ago
”Sergeant in the snow” is a great first person account of this period in World War II. It’s an amazing story but at the end you’re sort of asking yourself Wait, which side was the sergeant on? It kind of points to the absurdity political party affiliation during war time.
The Italian peninsula has been overrun so many times by so many armies for thousands of years that it’s history will never be clear or simple, or decided, something to be contemplated and examined forever.
Saffa
1 month ago
xcellent article Mr Tobia.
Italy and Italians have been always a divided country . such as the economic divide between the richer North and the underdeveloped South
Interesting article. The author misses out half of Italy, the south, which is almost like a different country. I lived right on the south coast for a while, Taranto, and they seemed to see themselves more like Greeks than Italians. I don’t even remember a special day, an Armistice Day: it must have been very low key.
For mini-breaks we often visited Naples. Armistice day or it’s equivalent was on the Sunday preceding 11 November and there were flowers everywhere with many people in black (not meaning blackshirts). It was like a national day of mourning.
An excellent observation. From my understanding, there’s a pretty sharp difference in ethnicity between the south and the north. In America, when we think of ‘Italians’, we’re probably thinking of the southern type, tanned skin, dark hair, etc, because most Italian American immigrants, including those who became known for their organized crime syndicates came from southern Italy or Sicily. As I was explaining to my mother at one point when we were watching something on TV and she commented on how some fellow doesn’t look Italian at all, people from Northern Italy look basically like any generic white person.
Yep. A long time ago, southern Italy was a Greek colony; it still uses the name Magna Grecia. In Taranto there are Ancient Greek ruins under the city, which have been exposed as places to visit. Those in N.Italy look down on people from the South as lazy grifters – which perhaps explains the gangster connections.
That’s because the northerners are descended from the Lombards, a Germanic tribe that conquered the place in the early Middle Ages.
very true. The same for Northern Italians mentality which is closer to Northern Europe countries than Southern Europe ones.
I don’t think it’s controversial to call Tito’s massacres of Italians ethnic cleansing, or even genocide.. The author shouldn’t be too nervous about saying such things. This is Unherd, not…any other out,et.
One good turn deserves another. I suspect Tito had that in mind.
Siena’s Palio is an example of a splintered community uniting in a common venture.
They make great coffee tho’.
“the Risiera di San Sabba became one of the country’s central exhibits of remembrance: this red-brick rice warehouse was a concentration camp, where political and Jewish prisoners were either murdered or transported to Nazi extermination camps. The Risiera, it’s thought, was responsible for the deaths of up to 5,000 people”
Deportations of Italian Jews to Germany didn’t happen under Mussolini’s Fascist government. It would have happened after Germany occupied north Italy when Italy surrendered in 1943. Prior to the Pact of Steel in 1939 Jews could join the fascist party, and many did.
It’s one reason why conflating fascism with national socialism is historically lazy and inaccurate.
Great post.
Either author doesn’t know Italian history or purposefully ignores it to make his point.
If commies took over in Italy numbers of killed in Risiera would be at least 20 times higher.
Many problems in Italy are due to unified country being so young.
There was not even standard Italian language understood by majority of people.
It took long time for Florentine dielect to become basis of Italian language.
Problem with commemorating anything is not helped by Italians starting and ending wars on different side.
They are not exactly most reliable allies.
Some would argue they are cowards.
Supported by Italian army “performance” in wars.
My brother worked for Fiat.
Many senior people there argued where Europe stops and Africa starts.
40 years ago many said south of Rome.
20 years ago, it was north of Rome.
Now it is not far south of Florence.
It did not help that Italians opted for Euro.
Hardly any GDP growth in 25 years.
Don’t you just love 4th Reich (sorry EU).
Just a brilliant article- chapeau
”Sergeant in the snow” is a great first person account of this period in World War II. It’s an amazing story but at the end you’re sort of asking yourself Wait, which side was the sergeant on? It kind of points to the absurdity political party affiliation during war time.
The Italian peninsula has been overrun so many times by so many armies for thousands of years that it’s history will never be clear or simple, or decided, something to be contemplated and examined forever.
xcellent article Mr Tobia.
Italy and Italians have been always a divided country . such as the economic divide between the richer North and the underdeveloped South