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Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago

The author uses rates to mask the huge improvement the supposed brutal crackdown has had. 90 people dying in prison seems huge, right? A homicide rate of 8 or even 105 is made to sound ballpark.

A reduction in homicide from 105 to 8 per 100,000 is over 6,111 lives saved every year. Even if a hundred gangsters die in prison, that’s still over 6,000 lives saved every year.

So in fact the crackdown is not brutal. It was the not cracking down that was brutal.

Some would argue this is the runaway railway wagon utilitarian viewpoint of the greater good versus the deontological perspective that killing an innocent person is always wrong. Except the people incarcerated are not innocent, they are violent criminals. The runaway railway wagon morality test does not apply here. The author’s hand-wringing is not just misplaced, it is utterly inappropriate.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nell Clover
David Kingsworthy
David Kingsworthy
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Sorry to be skeptical in the direction of fake news but this seems dodgy to me….
“I meet a prisoner who succeeded in getting his charges dropped and being released from Mariona. He describes how he was crammed into a cell with 162 inmates and the stink of faeces, had his ribs broken by guards, and frequently heard the screams of prisoners being tortured. During his month in jail, he says, he saw five corpses being carted out.”
And if those accounts are true, one can imagine that torture and killings are gang vs gang as opposed to abuse by guards. In that case, hands can be wrung but maybe only for a moment or two.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Some of them ARE probably innocent, you neatly evade that likelihood. Someone is shopped by a neighbour who doesn’t like them, and other similar scenarios.

David Kingsworthy
David Kingsworthy
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Sorry to be skeptical in the direction of fake news but this seems dodgy to me….
“I meet a prisoner who succeeded in getting his charges dropped and being released from Mariona. He describes how he was crammed into a cell with 162 inmates and the stink of faeces, had his ribs broken by guards, and frequently heard the screams of prisoners being tortured. During his month in jail, he says, he saw five corpses being carted out.”
And if those accounts are true, one can imagine that torture and killings are gang vs gang as opposed to abuse by guards. In that case, hands can be wrung but maybe only for a moment or two.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Nell Clover

Some of them ARE probably innocent, you neatly evade that likelihood. Someone is shopped by a neighbour who doesn’t like them, and other similar scenarios.

Nell Clover
Nell Clover
1 year ago

The author uses rates to mask the huge improvement the supposed brutal crackdown has had. 90 people dying in prison seems huge, right? A homicide rate of 8 or even 105 is made to sound ballpark.

A reduction in homicide from 105 to 8 per 100,000 is over 6,111 lives saved every year. Even if a hundred gangsters die in prison, that’s still over 6,000 lives saved every year.

So in fact the crackdown is not brutal. It was the not cracking down that was brutal.

Some would argue this is the runaway railway wagon utilitarian viewpoint of the greater good versus the deontological perspective that killing an innocent person is always wrong. Except the people incarcerated are not innocent, they are violent criminals. The runaway railway wagon morality test does not apply here. The author’s hand-wringing is not just misplaced, it is utterly inappropriate.

Last edited 1 year ago by Nell Clover
Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago

A strict regard for legal due process is the luxury of a settled an well ordered society. To try to uphold it in the face of widespread violent and lawless gang culture is to fail to protect the majority who are the victims. What seems to be happening in El Salvador seems to be more akin to a war against an occupying force of gangsters than a strictly judicial process. It appears, for the present, to have greatly improved the lives of the non-gang members of the country.
Why should those who live in relatively peaceful societies wish to intervene on the side of the violent forces of gang occupation in the name of an ideal that is manifestly inapplicable in practice there?
I seem to recall that Amnesty was set up to campaign for individuals who had committed no crime but were the victims of unjust political imprisonment. No doubt if they can identify some imprisoned individual who has been incarcerated for purely political reasons they should speak on their behalf but otherwise remain silent.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
1 year ago

A strict regard for legal due process is the luxury of a settled an well ordered society. To try to uphold it in the face of widespread violent and lawless gang culture is to fail to protect the majority who are the victims. What seems to be happening in El Salvador seems to be more akin to a war against an occupying force of gangsters than a strictly judicial process. It appears, for the present, to have greatly improved the lives of the non-gang members of the country.
Why should those who live in relatively peaceful societies wish to intervene on the side of the violent forces of gang occupation in the name of an ideal that is manifestly inapplicable in practice there?
I seem to recall that Amnesty was set up to campaign for individuals who had committed no crime but were the victims of unjust political imprisonment. No doubt if they can identify some imprisoned individual who has been incarcerated for purely political reasons they should speak on their behalf but otherwise remain silent.

Phillip Arundel
Phillip Arundel
1 year ago

”They share stories, their faces full of torment from not knowing whether their sons will ever return. I wonder if support for this mass incarceration shows a tyranny of the majority, and these are the victims. Or if the benefits could outweigh the injustices.”

So the writer wonders if it is unjust to lock up the world’s most violent criminals as it distresses the Mothers? That doing so victimized the Mothers beyond the crimes the criminals victimized their victims with?

100% Support Trump’s call for speedy death sentences for drug dealing of high level (Federal level – that means not possession but cartel level)

from the Independent

‘Trump calls for ‘quick’ death penalty for drug dealers as he describes US ‘going to hell very fast’
YES! These guys arrested for heinous crimes, even if not actual murder, being part of a gang which commits murder is enough – if you are part of it, you are part of the crime. – death penalty is the only thing which makes sense.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I was gobsmacked by the exact same comment. Tyranny of the majority – this is what we call law and order now?

Unfortunately, the more you let criminals run wild, the harsher the reaction has to be to solve it.

No one wants innocent children to be imprisoned, but the most basic function of govt is to protect citizens from violence.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So, I presume by that airy dismissal you are happy with the Democratic majority (as it is) in the United States imposing its values and laws on the minority? You guys are almost always entirely transactional in your espousal of supposedly fundamental principles.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Hmm. One thing isn’t like the other. I don’t have to like the Dems or their policies. I don’t have to like Biden either. Regardless, we should all respect the rights of minorities. Yet, I can support gay rights while opposing the rights of gang members to commit crimes.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Andrew Fisher

Hmm. One thing isn’t like the other. I don’t have to like the Dems or their policies. I don’t have to like Biden either. Regardless, we should all respect the rights of minorities. Yet, I can support gay rights while opposing the rights of gang members to commit crimes.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

So, I presume by that airy dismissal you are happy with the Democratic majority (as it is) in the United States imposing its values and laws on the minority? You guys are almost always entirely transactional in your espousal of supposedly fundamental principles.

Last edited 1 year ago by Andrew Fisher
John Dellingby
John Dellingby
1 year ago

I’m with the soldier who was interviewed and said “all mothers view their sons as angels”. In a culture with such close-knit families that are also very highly honour based, I imagine this makes coming to terms with any misdeeds from close family that much harder to swallow.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I was gobsmacked by the exact same comment. Tyranny of the majority – this is what we call law and order now?

Unfortunately, the more you let criminals run wild, the harsher the reaction has to be to solve it.

No one wants innocent children to be imprisoned, but the most basic function of govt is to protect citizens from violence.

John Dellingby
John Dellingby
1 year ago

I’m with the soldier who was interviewed and said “all mothers view their sons as angels”. In a culture with such close-knit families that are also very highly honour based, I imagine this makes coming to terms with any misdeeds from close family that much harder to swallow.

Phillip Arundel
Phillip Arundel
1 year ago

”They share stories, their faces full of torment from not knowing whether their sons will ever return. I wonder if support for this mass incarceration shows a tyranny of the majority, and these are the victims. Or if the benefits could outweigh the injustices.”

So the writer wonders if it is unjust to lock up the world’s most violent criminals as it distresses the Mothers? That doing so victimized the Mothers beyond the crimes the criminals victimized their victims with?

100% Support Trump’s call for speedy death sentences for drug dealing of high level (Federal level – that means not possession but cartel level)

from the Independent

‘Trump calls for ‘quick’ death penalty for drug dealers as he describes US ‘going to hell very fast’
YES! These guys arrested for heinous crimes, even if not actual murder, being part of a gang which commits murder is enough – if you are part of it, you are part of the crime. – death penalty is the only thing which makes sense.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

The lesson to be learned in the US is that allowing criminality will eventually require mass and tragic use of violence to restore order. We could find ourselves alarmingly close to such situations in the murder-riven blue-jurisdictions of major American cities, where the left refuses to even acknowledge that civilization is breaking down there, much less to anything effective about it.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

It’s probably like that in Chicago right now.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Daniel Lee

It’s probably like that in Chicago right now.

Daniel Lee
Daniel Lee
1 year ago

The lesson to be learned in the US is that allowing criminality will eventually require mass and tragic use of violence to restore order. We could find ourselves alarmingly close to such situations in the murder-riven blue-jurisdictions of major American cities, where the left refuses to even acknowledge that civilization is breaking down there, much less to anything effective about it.

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago

I’m no utilitarian but it is difficult to argexception seems ue with results like those. Given that the gangs had essentially paralysed the country for decades and drivens hundreds of thousands into exile a state of exception seems suitable

R Wright
R Wright
1 year ago

I’m no utilitarian but it is difficult to argexception seems ue with results like those. Given that the gangs had essentially paralysed the country for decades and drivens hundreds of thousands into exile a state of exception seems suitable

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago

When a government serves the people, it seems that the usual Amnesty International and other human rights NGO support murderers and criminals. If liberal elites they like gang members so much, maybe they could join them in the prison cells ?

Last edited 1 year ago by Emmanuel MARTIN
Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I think it’s related to a disconnect from living conditions for the poor and working class. In this sense, it’s more like a luxury belief. Similar to Defund The Police – only people living in safe or gated communities actually support these kind of ideas.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I think it’s related to a disconnect from living conditions for the poor and working class. In this sense, it’s more like a luxury belief. Similar to Defund The Police – only people living in safe or gated communities actually support these kind of ideas.

Emmanuel MARTIN
Emmanuel MARTIN
1 year ago

When a government serves the people, it seems that the usual Amnesty International and other human rights NGO support murderers and criminals. If liberal elites they like gang members so much, maybe they could join them in the prison cells ?

Last edited 1 year ago by Emmanuel MARTIN
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

According to that fabled organisation the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) El Salvador was the most dangerous place on earth for a number of years. Much to my surprise even more dangerous that relatively tranquil South Africa!

Thus Mr Bukeke is to be applauded for taking decisive, if somewhat brutal action. “Needs must” as we used to say.

Just a Marcus Licinius Crassus crucified the supporters of Spartacus along the Appian Way, sometimes there is just no other way.

Chantal Ettling
Chantal Ettling
1 year ago

I assume you mean ‘”stable South Africa” as a joke… or relative to what? It is neither safe nor stable.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chantal Ettling
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

Yes!

CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

Yes!

Chantal Ettling
Chantal Ettling
1 year ago

I assume you mean ‘”stable South Africa” as a joke… or relative to what? It is neither safe nor stable.

Last edited 1 year ago by Chantal Ettling
CHARLES STANHOPE
CHARLES STANHOPE
1 year ago

According to that fabled organisation the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) El Salvador was the most dangerous place on earth for a number of years. Much to my surprise even more dangerous that relatively tranquil South Africa!

Thus Mr Bukeke is to be applauded for taking decisive, if somewhat brutal action. “Needs must” as we used to say.

Just a Marcus Licinius Crassus crucified the supporters of Spartacus along the Appian Way, sometimes there is just no other way.

Sean Booth
Sean Booth
1 year ago

A harsh solution to a massive problem. Many governments across the globe either turn a blind eye to developing problems involving organised crime and extreme gang violence (UK, USA, Sweden, Denmark), are directly involved via kick backs and corruption (Zimbabwe, Venezuela) or are so totally incompetent and devoid of courage they do not know what to do.
The solution applied here is indeed harsh, but it is a cure that is much more preferable to the disease. Yes, there is a possibility that some people are incarcerated for minor crimes and associations, but minor crimes spawn major criminals, so maybe those individuals will see the light and reform if and when they are released?
Oh and by the way, Mothers are rarely the most independent minded individuals when it comes to assessing the failings of their sons.

Sean Booth
Sean Booth
1 year ago

A harsh solution to a massive problem. Many governments across the globe either turn a blind eye to developing problems involving organised crime and extreme gang violence (UK, USA, Sweden, Denmark), are directly involved via kick backs and corruption (Zimbabwe, Venezuela) or are so totally incompetent and devoid of courage they do not know what to do.
The solution applied here is indeed harsh, but it is a cure that is much more preferable to the disease. Yes, there is a possibility that some people are incarcerated for minor crimes and associations, but minor crimes spawn major criminals, so maybe those individuals will see the light and reform if and when they are released?
Oh and by the way, Mothers are rarely the most independent minded individuals when it comes to assessing the failings of their sons.

John Pade
John Pade
1 year ago

This is a matter of life and death. If protecting gang members’ so-called rights results in death and violating them results in life, and there are no other alternatives, then Bukele is right and his critics are wrong.
Rights don’t exist in a vacuum.

Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz
1 year ago
Reply to  John Pade

Agree completely

Oscar Munoz
Oscar Munoz
1 year ago
Reply to  John Pade

Agree completely

John Pade
John Pade
1 year ago

This is a matter of life and death. If protecting gang members’ so-called rights results in death and violating them results in life, and there are no other alternatives, then Bukele is right and his critics are wrong.
Rights don’t exist in a vacuum.

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago

Mass incarceration is a terrible thing. But having your country ruled by gangs is worse. Haiti is what happens when gangs run your country. Best of luck to the good people of El Salvador. I hope you find a way out of this mess.

M. Gatt
M. Gatt
1 year ago

Mass incarceration is a terrible thing. But having your country ruled by gangs is worse. Haiti is what happens when gangs run your country. Best of luck to the good people of El Salvador. I hope you find a way out of this mess.

Max Price
Max Price
1 year ago

Can someone confirm that that’s 6014 fewer murders?

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Max Price

I got the same number. Strange the author isn’t more explicit – it is a massive improvement.

Max Price
Max Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Mmm, strange.

Max Price
Max Price
1 year ago
Reply to  Matt M

Mmm, strange.

Matt M
Matt M
1 year ago
Reply to  Max Price

I got the same number. Strange the author isn’t more explicit – it is a massive improvement.

Max Price
Max Price
1 year ago

Can someone confirm that that’s 6014 fewer murders?

Slopmop McTeash
Slopmop McTeash
1 year ago

These gangs are made up of sub-human thugs…Their human rights!!! Do not talk to me of their human rights…I am far more concerned about the HUMAN rights of the people – who have the right to live peacefully in society without the vile terrorism these gangs inflict.

Bukele is a hero.

Slopmop McTeash
Slopmop McTeash
1 year ago

These gangs are made up of sub-human thugs…Their human rights!!! Do not talk to me of their human rights…I am far more concerned about the HUMAN rights of the people – who have the right to live peacefully in society without the vile terrorism these gangs inflict.

Bukele is a hero.

Mechan Barclay
Mechan Barclay
1 year ago

The author mentions:
“citizens are urged to inform on gang members, which could encourage people to finger anyone they have a beef with.”
Aren’t those they have a beef with the barrios/gangs along with all the complacent people who insulate these murderers? I’d have a beef as well if I had to live under such terrible situations.

Mechan Barclay
Mechan Barclay
1 year ago

The author mentions:
“citizens are urged to inform on gang members, which could encourage people to finger anyone they have a beef with.”
Aren’t those they have a beef with the barrios/gangs along with all the complacent people who insulate these murderers? I’d have a beef as well if I had to live under such terrible situations.

Margaret Donaldson
Margaret Donaldson
1 year ago

Human rights is a useless concept. Whose right is more important here? Try asking if it is fair and just that a country should have its inhabitants in the clutches of gangs. If you think it is, then complain about the treatment of these gang members.
If you think it is not, go with it. Far more serious is the future for EL Salvador once the gangsterism is under control. If the President does not release them into a community with decent jobs and work available, the entire strategy will have been wasted.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I’m not sure this is true. It can only be true if life was so miserable pre-crackdown that you had to commit crimes just to survive. I don’t think gang participation works this way. It’s often a social and convenience choice. If crime was allowed to take place without consequence pre-crackdown, and now there are severe consequences, there should be a dramatic drop in crime even when prisoners are released.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

I’m not sure this is true. It can only be true if life was so miserable pre-crackdown that you had to commit crimes just to survive. I don’t think gang participation works this way. It’s often a social and convenience choice. If crime was allowed to take place without consequence pre-crackdown, and now there are severe consequences, there should be a dramatic drop in crime even when prisoners are released.

Margaret Donaldson
Margaret Donaldson
1 year ago

Human rights is a useless concept. Whose right is more important here? Try asking if it is fair and just that a country should have its inhabitants in the clutches of gangs. If you think it is, then complain about the treatment of these gang members.
If you think it is not, go with it. Far more serious is the future for EL Salvador once the gangsterism is under control. If the President does not release them into a community with decent jobs and work available, the entire strategy will have been wasted.

Terry Black
Terry Black
1 year ago

Oh dear the bleeding heart mothers. I am concluding mothers are one of the biggest problems facing humankind.

Terry Black
Terry Black
1 year ago

Oh dear the bleeding heart mothers. I am concluding mothers are one of the biggest problems facing humankind.

Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago

Clearly El Salvador was in a terrible situation and something had to be done. I do not support arrest etc without reasonable evidence let alone incarceration BUT sometimes it has just fallen apart too much for that.
A good balanced article, thanks.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

If you look at the top photo, is it really hard to figure out who the gangsters are? They all indelibly mark their gang allegiance on their skin. If your entire torso is covered in gang tatoos it’s going to require a pretty good explanation for me to believe you’re not a gang member.

Snapper AG
Snapper AG
1 year ago
Reply to  Rob N

If you look at the top photo, is it really hard to figure out who the gangsters are? They all indelibly mark their gang allegiance on their skin. If your entire torso is covered in gang tatoos it’s going to require a pretty good explanation for me to believe you’re not a gang member.

Rob N
Rob N
1 year ago

Clearly El Salvador was in a terrible situation and something had to be done. I do not support arrest etc without reasonable evidence let alone incarceration BUT sometimes it has just fallen apart too much for that.
A good balanced article, thanks.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

I think the US has a higher incarceration rate.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago

How’s that liberal arts degree working out for you?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

Maybe check your facts before lobbing insults. I’m sure incarceration rates are fudged in many countries – China says hi – but there is no question the US has a very high number of people in prison.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Another humanities department member spoken from, I see. Hope that tuition forgiveness helped.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

I think I’ll leave both my embarrassingly foolish comments to hang in a gibbet for all to see as a warning to other bores like myself.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

One of the most impressive comments I’ve read in a long time. Super super cool. If everyone had this maturity, social media might be a little more tolerable. Not that it means much, but you’ve earned my profound respect Jacob Smith.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

One of the most impressive comments I’ve read in a long time. Super super cool. If everyone had this maturity, social media might be a little more tolerable. Not that it means much, but you’ve earned my profound respect Jacob Smith.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

I think I’ll leave both my embarrassingly foolish comments to hang in a gibbet for all to see as a warning to other bores like myself.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Another humanities department member spoken from, I see. Hope that tuition forgiveness helped.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

Maybe check your facts before lobbing insults. I’m sure incarceration rates are fudged in many countries – China says hi – but there is no question the US has a very high number of people in prison.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

According to the World Atlas, the US does indeed have the highest incarceration rates per 100,000 at 655. El Salvador is second at 590.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

2.5 million inmates of all sorts in the US. 331 million citizens plus like 40 million other assorted residents. That’s less than 150 inmates per 100,000 people.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

Sometimes the best advice is to stop digging the hole. Using your own stats, the number is 670 per 100,000.

And I think I was clear that all these numbers are questionable, certainly the numbers from authoritarian countries.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Hah! You’re 100% correct! I was doing the math wrong. Damn, and I felt so clever and everything. I’m the worst!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

No sweat. All in good fun.

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

No sweat. All in good fun.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

Hah! You’re 100% correct! I was doing the math wrong. Damn, and I felt so clever and everything. I’m the worst!

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
Reply to  Jacob Smith

Sometimes the best advice is to stop digging the hole. Using your own stats, the number is 670 per 100,000.

And I think I was clear that all these numbers are questionable, certainly the numbers from authoritarian countries.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago
Reply to  Jim Veenbaas

2.5 million inmates of all sorts in the US. 331 million citizens plus like 40 million other assorted residents. That’s less than 150 inmates per 100,000 people.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
1 year ago

How’s that liberal arts degree working out for you?

Jim Veenbaas
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago

According to the World Atlas, the US does indeed have the highest incarceration rates per 100,000 at 655. El Salvador is second at 590.

Simon Blanchard
Simon Blanchard
1 year ago

I think the US has a higher incarceration rate.