I’m very skeptical that the problems facing the British pork industry is the treatment of animals. Most people don’t know how animals are treated and don’t care. They want cheap food.
This really caught my attention; “According to data by digital tree-planting platform Treedom, of 2,000 people surveyed in December, a fifth ditched turkey and pigs in blankets, opting instead for a plant-based Christmas lunch.”
Who the hell is Treedom and why would anyone believe a survey saying 20% of people are opting for plant-based food?
This is a sub-teenager level comment. Hahaha – those horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk and strive to take personal responsibility to live their values through their personal choices. The implication behind your comment is that anyone who doesn’t eat meat or dairy must be an insufferable bore and scold – and/or that nothing they might choose to eat instead would be worth trying. But you’re the guy who is (for some interesting psychological reasons perhaps?) going out of your way to attack them for simply living their own humane values in their own homes. Either you are utterly callous or perhaps an actual sadist – or your conscience is bothering you a bit and this seemed a good opportunity to default to appealing to the crowd for a cheap chuckle at those people who dare care about the suffering of thinking, feeling animals other than humans (you may not care much for other humans either, idk). You’re engaging in ad hominem ridicule and dismissal of anyone who takes seriously the suffering of other species while having no moral counter argument to offer.
“horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk”
Funnily enough, the few vegan samples I know all have a higher carbon footprint, bigger cars / houses, way more frequent air travel….and not because I can’t afford those things.
But I guess they have actual, real, consciences and feel wonderful about themselves, so that’s great for you all!
And thanks for illustrating exactly why normal people like me prefer to avoid the wonderful company of those noble people.
“horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk”
Funnily enough, the few vegan samples I know all have a higher carbon footprint, bigger cars / houses, way more frequent air travel….and not because I can’t afford those things.
But I guess they have actual, real, consciences and feel wonderful about themselves, so that’s great for you all!
And thanks for illustrating exactly why normal people like me prefer to avoid the wonderful company of those noble people.
This is a sub-teenager level comment. Hahaha – those horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk and strive to take personal responsibility to live their values through their personal choices. The implication behind your comment is that anyone who doesn’t eat meat or dairy must be an insufferable bore and scold – and/or that nothing they might choose to eat instead would be worth trying. But you’re the guy who is (for some interesting psychological reasons perhaps?) going out of your way to attack them for simply living their own humane values in their own homes. Either you are utterly callous or perhaps an actual sadist – or your conscience is bothering you a bit and this seemed a good opportunity to default to appealing to the crowd for a cheap chuckle at those people who dare care about the suffering of thinking, feeling animals other than humans (you may not care much for other humans either, idk). You’re engaging in ad hominem ridicule and dismissal of anyone who takes seriously the suffering of other species while having no moral counter argument to offer.
As opposed to your rigorous research on the topic? Maybe this survey was designed and conducted by the highest standards of social science. Maybe it has some flaws. And what are you doing? Just waving it away via your bare assertions about what “most people want/think”. What’s it to you if 20% of 2,000 people surveyed opted for a meal not based on inflicting needless agony and terror on countless animals just as smart (if not more so) and at least as emotionally complex and sensitive as the dogs and cats and other animals so many consider beloved members of the family?
We can only eat dead cells, cells which were once alive and thriving until they were cruelly killed for food. The cod, the carrot, the cow, the cabbage, the chicken, the cauliflower … all made of cells … get yourself a microscope and see the incredible complexity of these miracles and try to spot any differences.
Look. Carnivores and omnivores eat animals. It’s simply what happens. I’m not some knuckle dragger who supports cruel treatment of animals.
Ultimately, I support whatever delivers healthy food to humans at the lowest cost. If we can avoid mistreating animals while doing this, you have my full support.
I am not going to take the time to discredit this survey. Intuitively I know it’s flawed.
We can only eat dead cells, cells which were once alive and thriving until they were cruelly killed for food. The cod, the carrot, the cow, the cabbage, the chicken, the cauliflower … all made of cells … get yourself a microscope and see the incredible complexity of these miracles and try to spot any differences.
Look. Carnivores and omnivores eat animals. It’s simply what happens. I’m not some knuckle dragger who supports cruel treatment of animals.
Ultimately, I support whatever delivers healthy food to humans at the lowest cost. If we can avoid mistreating animals while doing this, you have my full support.
I am not going to take the time to discredit this survey. Intuitively I know it’s flawed.
As opposed to your rigorous research on the topic? Maybe this survey was designed and conducted by the highest standards of social science. Maybe it has some flaws. And what are you doing? Just waving it away via your bare assertions about what “most people want/think”. What’s it to you if 20% of 2,000 people surveyed opted for a meal not based on inflicting needless agony and terror on countless animals just as smart (if not more so) and at least as emotionally complex and sensitive as the dogs and cats and other animals so many consider beloved members of the family?
Jim Veenbaas
1 year ago
I’m very skeptical that the problems facing the British pork industry is the treatment of animals. Most people don’t know how animals are treated and don’t care. They want cheap food.
This really caught my attention; “According to data by digital tree-planting platform Treedom, of 2,000 people surveyed in December, a fifth ditched turkey and pigs in blankets, opting instead for a plant-based Christmas lunch.”
Who the hell is Treedom and why would anyone believe a survey saying 20% of people are opting for plant-based food?
Julian Mellentin
1 year ago
A good article. The para about plant-based and vegan, however, is not correct. At most 3% of the UK population are vegan. Around 24% of people in the UK are ‘meat reducers’. That number has not increased since about 2020. Sales of plant-based meat substitutes are not rising. Sales actually fell by 6% in 2022, according to the supermarkets’ own sales data. Quorn, the biggest brand, experienced an 8% fall in sales. And around 50% of vegetarians eat chicken or fish, according to research we have seen from GfK (a pan-European research firm) and from our own customers. I write this as a food industry insider.
Last edited 1 year ago by Julian Mellentin
Julian Mellentin
1 year ago
A good article. The para about plant-based and vegan, however, is not correct. At most 3% of the UK population are vegan. Around 24% of people in the UK are ‘meat reducers’. That number has not increased since about 2020. Sales of plant-based meat substitutes are not rising. Sales actually fell by 6% in 2022, according to the supermarkets’ own sales data. Quorn, the biggest brand, experienced an 8% fall in sales. And around 50% of vegetarians eat chicken or fish, according to research we have seen from GfK (a pan-European research firm) and from our own customers. I write this as a food industry insider.
Last edited 1 year ago by Julian Mellentin
Samir Iker
1 year ago
It should definitely be an option to have meat products that are based on more humanely treated, reared and culled animals. I would definitely opt for those products.
However, it’s worth keeping in mind a) those products will be more expensive and out of reach for the majority of the population and b) the meat industry can’t overnight switch. Practical considerations that the vegan brigade may not care about, but policymakers should.
Not if you tax for downstream costs or hidden upstream costs at point of entry into the market. You then use those taxes to subsidise farming that supports good human and environmental health, thus levelling the pricing. It also maybe requires some consumer education on quality over quantity but easy access is the key
Any process that involves tax, subsidy, price levelling and certain people deciding for everyone what constitutes “good human and environmental health”…. probably won’t work as well in reality as in theory!
Any process that involves tax, subsidy, price levelling and certain people deciding for everyone what constitutes “good human and environmental health”…. probably won’t work as well in reality as in theory!
Not if you tax for downstream costs or hidden upstream costs at point of entry into the market. You then use those taxes to subsidise farming that supports good human and environmental health, thus levelling the pricing. It also maybe requires some consumer education on quality over quantity but easy access is the key
Samir Iker
1 year ago
It should definitely be an option to have meat products that are based on more humanely treated, reared and culled animals. I would definitely opt for those products.
However, it’s worth keeping in mind a) those products will be more expensive and out of reach for the majority of the population and b) the meat industry can’t overnight switch. Practical considerations that the vegan brigade may not care about, but policymakers should.
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Putting on one-side all the EU related discussion, I would suggest that livestock and food in general should always be locally sourced were possible. Likewise the animal feeds.
If nothing else, it greatly reduces the spread of disease, is more ecological, helps bio-diversity, and the short supply-chain is more secure.
Mr Bellisarius
1 year ago
Putting on one-side all the EU related discussion, I would suggest that livestock and food in general should always be locally sourced were possible. Likewise the animal feeds.
If nothing else, it greatly reduces the spread of disease, is more ecological, helps bio-diversity, and the short supply-chain is more secure.
Tim Smith
1 year ago
So, apparently, in order to respond to consumer demand, we need to ban the products that the overwhelming majority of consumers choose to buy (i.e. the cheapest), because otherwise the type of product advocated in this article won’t be able to compete?
If the consumer really does want what the author says they do, and it willing to pay a premium for it, why is it necessary to ban the competition?
It’s not ‘ban the competition’; it’s ‘stop people treating animals cruelly’, isn’t it? Just because ’consumers’ want cheap food doesn’t mean they are entitled to have tortured animals to eat.
It sounds so simple, but I’m not sure it’s as easy as that.
For example, should we ban all goods produced in countries where workers are not paid the UK minimum wage? How far down the supply chain should we go before the end product is deemed tainted by some aspect that would not be legal in the UK?
And what happens when other countries do the same to us?
Unless you have full regulatory harmonisation worldwide, that principle would be incompatible with the vast majority of international trade.
Wages are a lot harder to allow for, as they can fluctuate with currency valuations and can even vary between different areas of the same country. You could perhaps apply tariffs to imports from countries with low wages to level the playing field but this could end up doing more harm than good sometimes.
Minimum standards however are much easier to enforce. Al imports have to be certified to confirm they meet the destination countries minimum standards on things such as health and safety (cars/electronics etc) so I see no reason why the same couldn’t apply to minimum animal welfare standards
Wages are a lot harder to allow for, as they can fluctuate with currency valuations and can even vary between different areas of the same country. You could perhaps apply tariffs to imports from countries with low wages to level the playing field but this could end up doing more harm than good sometimes.
Minimum standards however are much easier to enforce. Al imports have to be certified to confirm they meet the destination countries minimum standards on things such as health and safety (cars/electronics etc) so I see no reason why the same couldn’t apply to minimum animal welfare standards
It sounds so simple, but I’m not sure it’s as easy as that.
For example, should we ban all goods produced in countries where workers are not paid the UK minimum wage? How far down the supply chain should we go before the end product is deemed tainted by some aspect that would not be legal in the UK?
And what happens when other countries do the same to us?
Unless you have full regulatory harmonisation worldwide, that principle would be incompatible with the vast majority of international trade.
We just need more info – such as exactly where pigmeat comes from, how it is produced, in detail (farrowing crates eg), and the subsidy it earns at point of production. Then you can ponder veganism, which is unhealthy in terms, and would not survive without the livestock industry.
It’s not ‘ban the competition’; it’s ‘stop people treating animals cruelly’, isn’t it? Just because ’consumers’ want cheap food doesn’t mean they are entitled to have tortured animals to eat.
We just need more info – such as exactly where pigmeat comes from, how it is produced, in detail (farrowing crates eg), and the subsidy it earns at point of production. Then you can ponder veganism, which is unhealthy in terms, and would not survive without the livestock industry.
Tim Smith
1 year ago
So, apparently, in order to respond to consumer demand, we need to ban the products that the overwhelming majority of consumers choose to buy (i.e. the cheapest), because otherwise the type of product advocated in this article won’t be able to compete?
If the consumer really does want what the author says they do, and it willing to pay a premium for it, why is it necessary to ban the competition?
Tom Watson
1 year ago
It’s easy to sympathise with the meat industry – ironically given everything in this article – caught between the rock of sacrificing welfare for competitiveness and the hard place of giving ammunition to the crazies who think they shouldn’t even exist when they do so.
FWIW the properly raised stuff is absolutely delicious, much less fatty and well worth the extra price – it is to supermarket premium labels what those labels are to the ‘basics’ ranges. Just a shame it’s so difficult to find.
Where I live we are overrun by wild boar. It’s now quite common to find wild boar salami and hams on market stalls. The meat really is quite something else!
Where I live we are overrun by wild boar. It’s now quite common to find wild boar salami and hams on market stalls. The meat really is quite something else!
Tom Watson
1 year ago
It’s easy to sympathise with the meat industry – ironically given everything in this article – caught between the rock of sacrificing welfare for competitiveness and the hard place of giving ammunition to the crazies who think they shouldn’t even exist when they do so.
FWIW the properly raised stuff is absolutely delicious, much less fatty and well worth the extra price – it is to supermarket premium labels what those labels are to the ‘basics’ ranges. Just a shame it’s so difficult to find.
Jonas Moze
1 year ago
” “Laws are like sausages. It is best not to see them being made.””
Bismark
haha
Yea, it is a cruel world out there….. Nature is the coldest thing in all existence, as cold as a meteor in space.. I lived a fair number of years in remote camps, in wild places, and the beauty is great indeed – but the coldness – the utter lack of compassion, of care, of any human emotion, of love, – it weighs on you, remote wilds solitary… you feel that quality – there it is in all its astounding beauty, yet it is utterly cold to you and to all the life – it is like how true dark is the absence of light – true nature is the absence of compassion and love, of hate too – but it is cold – it just is hugeness and trillions of things are living, and suffering, and ultimately dieing of want or harm – and on it goes for ever…
I have always felt understanding of the Hindu God, Juggernaut. He drives a mighty wagon of huge mass, with giant stone wheels, and inexorable it keeps on rolling forward – crushing all life before it, extinguishing life, and then behind the wheels springs up new life, to grow, breed, live, suffer or thrive, and around Juggernaut passes again – eternally, The Great Wheel….
In nature a creature has, say 6 kits a year, may be one or thirty – but only two will make it to breed – the rest soon being lost to want and harm, as does the mother in her time, and it is not nice death, it is hard – life out there is hard…..
The farm is hard… yes, raised, cared for, and killed soon, maybe not so nicely – but not so bad either…. It all is The Great Wheel, and it is life, and the only way to stop this life which leads to death is to stop life. That is what the vegan believes is humane, to not farm animals, not have them live – I do not know really how that is better….
I have seen too much suffering in my time and it weighs on me – but I happily eat my pork, my chicken,,, it is the great wheel, and I will finish my turn one day….and I know how easy I have had it, and I try to remember to be thankful for all – there is great beauty in existence, and the Love we humans can feel – it is worth it all if one is not too unfortunate…. but it is hard…
Just because nature can be cruel and unforgiving that doesn’t mean humans have to be. I’ll eat meat until the day I die but that doesn’t mean the animals should have to suffer in life before they’re killed
Just because nature can be cruel and unforgiving that doesn’t mean humans have to be. I’ll eat meat until the day I die but that doesn’t mean the animals should have to suffer in life before they’re killed
Is/ought distinction just called, says he wants some recognition since he has been around for a few centuries.
Jonas Moze
1 year ago
” “Laws are like sausages. It is best not to see them being made.””
Bismark
haha
Yea, it is a cruel world out there….. Nature is the coldest thing in all existence, as cold as a meteor in space.. I lived a fair number of years in remote camps, in wild places, and the beauty is great indeed – but the coldness – the utter lack of compassion, of care, of any human emotion, of love, – it weighs on you, remote wilds solitary… you feel that quality – there it is in all its astounding beauty, yet it is utterly cold to you and to all the life – it is like how true dark is the absence of light – true nature is the absence of compassion and love, of hate too – but it is cold – it just is hugeness and trillions of things are living, and suffering, and ultimately dieing of want or harm – and on it goes for ever…
I have always felt understanding of the Hindu God, Juggernaut. He drives a mighty wagon of huge mass, with giant stone wheels, and inexorable it keeps on rolling forward – crushing all life before it, extinguishing life, and then behind the wheels springs up new life, to grow, breed, live, suffer or thrive, and around Juggernaut passes again – eternally, The Great Wheel….
In nature a creature has, say 6 kits a year, may be one or thirty – but only two will make it to breed – the rest soon being lost to want and harm, as does the mother in her time, and it is not nice death, it is hard – life out there is hard…..
The farm is hard… yes, raised, cared for, and killed soon, maybe not so nicely – but not so bad either…. It all is The Great Wheel, and it is life, and the only way to stop this life which leads to death is to stop life. That is what the vegan believes is humane, to not farm animals, not have them live – I do not know really how that is better….
I have seen too much suffering in my time and it weighs on me – but I happily eat my pork, my chicken,,, it is the great wheel, and I will finish my turn one day….and I know how easy I have had it, and I try to remember to be thankful for all – there is great beauty in existence, and the Love we humans can feel – it is worth it all if one is not too unfortunate…. but it is hard…
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Not reading. Conventional pig farming is one of the cruellest things humans do…. And the list of what atrocities humans are capable of is long. Pork will not cross my lips and has not done for many decades.
Lesley van Reenen
1 year ago
Not reading. Conventional pig farming is one of the cruellest things humans do…. And the list of what atrocities humans are capable of is long. Pork will not cross my lips and has not done for many decades.
Charles Custard
1 year ago
Having recently moved to Wiltshire, my wife and I, both pork lovers, were looking forward to great local produce. We are lucky enough to be able to afford to pay for premium products but so far we have found none so are considering getting it shipped up from our previously local farm in Sussex.
Charles Custard
1 year ago
Having recently moved to Wiltshire, my wife and I, both pork lovers, were looking forward to great local produce. We are lucky enough to be able to afford to pay for premium products but so far we have found none so are considering getting it shipped up from our previously local farm in Sussex.
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
As I write, there are two chops of pannage pork sitting in the kitchen awaiting their fate as Mrs D’s and my dinner. So I’m all in favour of eating pork from happy pigs. Perhaps I’m fortunate in having local sources of such food.
However, it’s disappointing to see a farmer yet again calling for food imports to be banned. Since there is no prospect of British farmers being able to supply more than 50% or so of the nation’s food, seeking to deny the less well-off affordable food from overseas in the middle of a cost of living crisis is self-serving special pleading of a high order.
Dougie Undersub
1 year ago
As I write, there are two chops of pannage pork sitting in the kitchen awaiting their fate as Mrs D’s and my dinner. So I’m all in favour of eating pork from happy pigs. Perhaps I’m fortunate in having local sources of such food.
However, it’s disappointing to see a farmer yet again calling for food imports to be banned. Since there is no prospect of British farmers being able to supply more than 50% or so of the nation’s food, seeking to deny the less well-off affordable food from overseas in the middle of a cost of living crisis is self-serving special pleading of a high order.
Paul Devlin
1 year ago
I’m amazed to read that pork smuggling into Britain is big business
Paul Devlin
1 year ago
I’m amazed to read that pork smuggling into Britain is big business
Josh Loeb
1 year ago
You have omitted to mention the implications of the ban on using zinc oxide as a medicine for pigs. The ban has been introduced by the EU, ostensibly for environmental reasons, but is likely to lead to increased use of antibiotics on pig farms. The UK is following the EU in bringing in this ban – even though there is no evidence base justifying this in the UK, which thanks to Brexit could opt to diverge should it wish.
Josh Loeb
1 year ago
You have omitted to mention the implications of the ban on using zinc oxide as a medicine for pigs. The ban has been introduced by the EU, ostensibly for environmental reasons, but is likely to lead to increased use of antibiotics on pig farms. The UK is following the EU in bringing in this ban – even though there is no evidence base justifying this in the UK, which thanks to Brexit could opt to diverge should it wish.
I’m very skeptical that the problems facing the British pork industry is the treatment of animals. Most people don’t know how animals are treated and don’t care. They want cheap food.
This really caught my attention; “According to data by digital tree-planting platform Treedom, of 2,000 people surveyed in December, a fifth ditched turkey and pigs in blankets, opting instead for a plant-based Christmas lunch.”
Who the hell is Treedom and why would anyone believe a survey saying 20% of people are opting for plant-based food?
I would be more keen to know which if my acquaintances opted for a “plant-based Christmas lunch” so that I know who to avoid in future.
This is a sub-teenager level comment. Hahaha – those horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk and strive to take personal responsibility to live their values through their personal choices. The implication behind your comment is that anyone who doesn’t eat meat or dairy must be an insufferable bore and scold – and/or that nothing they might choose to eat instead would be worth trying. But you’re the guy who is (for some interesting psychological reasons perhaps?) going out of your way to attack them for simply living their own humane values in their own homes. Either you are utterly callous or perhaps an actual sadist – or your conscience is bothering you a bit and this seemed a good opportunity to default to appealing to the crowd for a cheap chuckle at those people who dare care about the suffering of thinking, feeling animals other than humans (you may not care much for other humans either, idk). You’re engaging in ad hominem ridicule and dismissal of anyone who takes seriously the suffering of other species while having no moral counter argument to offer.
Scolded the insufferable bore.
“horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk”
Funnily enough, the few vegan samples I know all have a higher carbon footprint, bigger cars / houses, way more frequent air travel….and not because I can’t afford those things.
But I guess they have actual, real, consciences and feel wonderful about themselves, so that’s great for you all!
And thanks for illustrating exactly why normal people like me prefer to avoid the wonderful company of those noble people.
Scolded the insufferable bore.
“horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk”
Funnily enough, the few vegan samples I know all have a higher carbon footprint, bigger cars / houses, way more frequent air travel….and not because I can’t afford those things.
But I guess they have actual, real, consciences and feel wonderful about themselves, so that’s great for you all!
And thanks for illustrating exactly why normal people like me prefer to avoid the wonderful company of those noble people.
This is a sub-teenager level comment. Hahaha – those horrible people with actual consciences who walk the walk and strive to take personal responsibility to live their values through their personal choices. The implication behind your comment is that anyone who doesn’t eat meat or dairy must be an insufferable bore and scold – and/or that nothing they might choose to eat instead would be worth trying. But you’re the guy who is (for some interesting psychological reasons perhaps?) going out of your way to attack them for simply living their own humane values in their own homes. Either you are utterly callous or perhaps an actual sadist – or your conscience is bothering you a bit and this seemed a good opportunity to default to appealing to the crowd for a cheap chuckle at those people who dare care about the suffering of thinking, feeling animals other than humans (you may not care much for other humans either, idk). You’re engaging in ad hominem ridicule and dismissal of anyone who takes seriously the suffering of other species while having no moral counter argument to offer.
We had a stuffed Christmas tree for lunch…
As opposed to your rigorous research on the topic? Maybe this survey was designed and conducted by the highest standards of social science. Maybe it has some flaws. And what are you doing? Just waving it away via your bare assertions about what “most people want/think”. What’s it to you if 20% of 2,000 people surveyed opted for a meal not based on inflicting needless agony and terror on countless animals just as smart (if not more so) and at least as emotionally complex and sensitive as the dogs and cats and other animals so many consider beloved members of the family?
We can only eat dead cells, cells which were once alive and thriving until they were cruelly killed for food. The cod, the carrot, the cow, the cabbage, the chicken, the cauliflower … all made of cells … get yourself a microscope and see the incredible complexity of these miracles and try to spot any differences.
Look. Carnivores and omnivores eat animals. It’s simply what happens. I’m not some knuckle dragger who supports cruel treatment of animals.
Ultimately, I support whatever delivers healthy food to humans at the lowest cost. If we can avoid mistreating animals while doing this, you have my full support.
I am not going to take the time to discredit this survey. Intuitively I know it’s flawed.
We can only eat dead cells, cells which were once alive and thriving until they were cruelly killed for food. The cod, the carrot, the cow, the cabbage, the chicken, the cauliflower … all made of cells … get yourself a microscope and see the incredible complexity of these miracles and try to spot any differences.
Look. Carnivores and omnivores eat animals. It’s simply what happens. I’m not some knuckle dragger who supports cruel treatment of animals.
Ultimately, I support whatever delivers healthy food to humans at the lowest cost. If we can avoid mistreating animals while doing this, you have my full support.
I am not going to take the time to discredit this survey. Intuitively I know it’s flawed.
I would be more keen to know which if my acquaintances opted for a “plant-based Christmas lunch” so that I know who to avoid in future.
We had a stuffed Christmas tree for lunch…
As opposed to your rigorous research on the topic? Maybe this survey was designed and conducted by the highest standards of social science. Maybe it has some flaws. And what are you doing? Just waving it away via your bare assertions about what “most people want/think”. What’s it to you if 20% of 2,000 people surveyed opted for a meal not based on inflicting needless agony and terror on countless animals just as smart (if not more so) and at least as emotionally complex and sensitive as the dogs and cats and other animals so many consider beloved members of the family?
I’m very skeptical that the problems facing the British pork industry is the treatment of animals. Most people don’t know how animals are treated and don’t care. They want cheap food.
This really caught my attention; “According to data by digital tree-planting platform Treedom, of 2,000 people surveyed in December, a fifth ditched turkey and pigs in blankets, opting instead for a plant-based Christmas lunch.”
Who the hell is Treedom and why would anyone believe a survey saying 20% of people are opting for plant-based food?
A good article. The para about plant-based and vegan, however, is not correct. At most 3% of the UK population are vegan. Around 24% of people in the UK are ‘meat reducers’. That number has not increased since about 2020. Sales of plant-based meat substitutes are not rising. Sales actually fell by 6% in 2022, according to the supermarkets’ own sales data. Quorn, the biggest brand, experienced an 8% fall in sales. And around 50% of vegetarians eat chicken or fish, according to research we have seen from GfK (a pan-European research firm) and from our own customers. I write this as a food industry insider.
A good article. The para about plant-based and vegan, however, is not correct. At most 3% of the UK population are vegan. Around 24% of people in the UK are ‘meat reducers’. That number has not increased since about 2020. Sales of plant-based meat substitutes are not rising. Sales actually fell by 6% in 2022, according to the supermarkets’ own sales data. Quorn, the biggest brand, experienced an 8% fall in sales. And around 50% of vegetarians eat chicken or fish, according to research we have seen from GfK (a pan-European research firm) and from our own customers. I write this as a food industry insider.
It should definitely be an option to have meat products that are based on more humanely treated, reared and culled animals. I would definitely opt for those products.
However, it’s worth keeping in mind a) those products will be more expensive and out of reach for the majority of the population and b) the meat industry can’t overnight switch. Practical considerations that the vegan brigade may not care about, but policymakers should.
Not if you tax for downstream costs or hidden upstream costs at point of entry into the market. You then use those taxes to subsidise farming that supports good human and environmental health, thus levelling the pricing. It also maybe requires some consumer education on quality over quantity but easy access is the key
Any process that involves tax, subsidy, price levelling and certain people deciding for everyone what constitutes “good human and environmental health”…. probably won’t work as well in reality as in theory!
Any process that involves tax, subsidy, price levelling and certain people deciding for everyone what constitutes “good human and environmental health”…. probably won’t work as well in reality as in theory!
Not if you tax for downstream costs or hidden upstream costs at point of entry into the market. You then use those taxes to subsidise farming that supports good human and environmental health, thus levelling the pricing. It also maybe requires some consumer education on quality over quantity but easy access is the key
It should definitely be an option to have meat products that are based on more humanely treated, reared and culled animals. I would definitely opt for those products.
However, it’s worth keeping in mind a) those products will be more expensive and out of reach for the majority of the population and b) the meat industry can’t overnight switch. Practical considerations that the vegan brigade may not care about, but policymakers should.
Putting on one-side all the EU related discussion, I would suggest that livestock and food in general should always be locally sourced were possible. Likewise the animal feeds.
If nothing else, it greatly reduces the spread of disease, is more ecological, helps bio-diversity, and the short supply-chain is more secure.
Putting on one-side all the EU related discussion, I would suggest that livestock and food in general should always be locally sourced were possible. Likewise the animal feeds.
If nothing else, it greatly reduces the spread of disease, is more ecological, helps bio-diversity, and the short supply-chain is more secure.
So, apparently, in order to respond to consumer demand, we need to ban the products that the overwhelming majority of consumers choose to buy (i.e. the cheapest), because otherwise the type of product advocated in this article won’t be able to compete?
If the consumer really does want what the author says they do, and it willing to pay a premium for it, why is it necessary to ban the competition?
It’s not ‘ban the competition’; it’s ‘stop people treating animals cruelly’, isn’t it? Just because ’consumers’ want cheap food doesn’t mean they are entitled to have tortured animals to eat.
Any government that is happy to import items that wouldn’t be allowed to be produced in their home country simply because they’d be cheaper is inept
There I think you have it
It sounds so simple, but I’m not sure it’s as easy as that.
For example, should we ban all goods produced in countries where workers are not paid the UK minimum wage? How far down the supply chain should we go before the end product is deemed tainted by some aspect that would not be legal in the UK?
And what happens when other countries do the same to us?
Unless you have full regulatory harmonisation worldwide, that principle would be incompatible with the vast majority of international trade.
Wages are a lot harder to allow for, as they can fluctuate with currency valuations and can even vary between different areas of the same country. You could perhaps apply tariffs to imports from countries with low wages to level the playing field but this could end up doing more harm than good sometimes.
Minimum standards however are much easier to enforce. Al imports have to be certified to confirm they meet the destination countries minimum standards on things such as health and safety (cars/electronics etc) so I see no reason why the same couldn’t apply to minimum animal welfare standards
Wages are a lot harder to allow for, as they can fluctuate with currency valuations and can even vary between different areas of the same country. You could perhaps apply tariffs to imports from countries with low wages to level the playing field but this could end up doing more harm than good sometimes.
Minimum standards however are much easier to enforce. Al imports have to be certified to confirm they meet the destination countries minimum standards on things such as health and safety (cars/electronics etc) so I see no reason why the same couldn’t apply to minimum animal welfare standards
There I think you have it
It sounds so simple, but I’m not sure it’s as easy as that.
For example, should we ban all goods produced in countries where workers are not paid the UK minimum wage? How far down the supply chain should we go before the end product is deemed tainted by some aspect that would not be legal in the UK?
And what happens when other countries do the same to us?
Unless you have full regulatory harmonisation worldwide, that principle would be incompatible with the vast majority of international trade.
We just need more info – such as exactly where pigmeat comes from, how it is produced, in detail (farrowing crates eg), and the subsidy it earns at point of production. Then you can ponder veganism, which is unhealthy in terms, and would not survive without the livestock industry.
It’s not ‘ban the competition’; it’s ‘stop people treating animals cruelly’, isn’t it? Just because ’consumers’ want cheap food doesn’t mean they are entitled to have tortured animals to eat.
Any government that is happy to import items that wouldn’t be allowed to be produced in their home country simply because they’d be cheaper is inept
We just need more info – such as exactly where pigmeat comes from, how it is produced, in detail (farrowing crates eg), and the subsidy it earns at point of production. Then you can ponder veganism, which is unhealthy in terms, and would not survive without the livestock industry.
So, apparently, in order to respond to consumer demand, we need to ban the products that the overwhelming majority of consumers choose to buy (i.e. the cheapest), because otherwise the type of product advocated in this article won’t be able to compete?
If the consumer really does want what the author says they do, and it willing to pay a premium for it, why is it necessary to ban the competition?
It’s easy to sympathise with the meat industry – ironically given everything in this article – caught between the rock of sacrificing welfare for competitiveness and the hard place of giving ammunition to the crazies who think they shouldn’t even exist when they do so.
FWIW the properly raised stuff is absolutely delicious, much less fatty and well worth the extra price – it is to supermarket premium labels what those labels are to the ‘basics’ ranges. Just a shame it’s so difficult to find.
Where I live we are overrun by wild boar. It’s now quite common to find wild boar salami and hams on market stalls. The meat really is quite something else!
Where I live we are overrun by wild boar. It’s now quite common to find wild boar salami and hams on market stalls. The meat really is quite something else!
It’s easy to sympathise with the meat industry – ironically given everything in this article – caught between the rock of sacrificing welfare for competitiveness and the hard place of giving ammunition to the crazies who think they shouldn’t even exist when they do so.
FWIW the properly raised stuff is absolutely delicious, much less fatty and well worth the extra price – it is to supermarket premium labels what those labels are to the ‘basics’ ranges. Just a shame it’s so difficult to find.
” “Laws are like sausages. It is best not to see them being made.””
Bismark
haha
Yea, it is a cruel world out there….. Nature is the coldest thing in all existence, as cold as a meteor in space.. I lived a fair number of years in remote camps, in wild places, and the beauty is great indeed – but the coldness – the utter lack of compassion, of care, of any human emotion, of love, – it weighs on you, remote wilds solitary… you feel that quality – there it is in all its astounding beauty, yet it is utterly cold to you and to all the life – it is like how true dark is the absence of light – true nature is the absence of compassion and love, of hate too – but it is cold – it just is hugeness and trillions of things are living, and suffering, and ultimately dieing of want or harm – and on it goes for ever…
I have always felt understanding of the Hindu God, Juggernaut. He drives a mighty wagon of huge mass, with giant stone wheels, and inexorable it keeps on rolling forward – crushing all life before it, extinguishing life, and then behind the wheels springs up new life, to grow, breed, live, suffer or thrive, and around Juggernaut passes again – eternally, The Great Wheel….
In nature a creature has, say 6 kits a year, may be one or thirty – but only two will make it to breed – the rest soon being lost to want and harm, as does the mother in her time, and it is not nice death, it is hard – life out there is hard…..
The farm is hard… yes, raised, cared for, and killed soon, maybe not so nicely – but not so bad either…. It all is The Great Wheel, and it is life, and the only way to stop this life which leads to death is to stop life. That is what the vegan believes is humane, to not farm animals, not have them live – I do not know really how that is better….
I have seen too much suffering in my time and it weighs on me – but I happily eat my pork, my chicken,,, it is the great wheel, and I will finish my turn one day….and I know how easy I have had it, and I try to remember to be thankful for all – there is great beauty in existence, and the Love we humans can feel – it is worth it all if one is not too unfortunate…. but it is hard…
Just because nature can be cruel and unforgiving that doesn’t mean humans have to be. I’ll eat meat until the day I die but that doesn’t mean the animals should have to suffer in life before they’re killed
Is/ought distinction just called, says he wants some recognition since he has been around for a few centuries.
Just because nature can be cruel and unforgiving that doesn’t mean humans have to be. I’ll eat meat until the day I die but that doesn’t mean the animals should have to suffer in life before they’re killed
Is/ought distinction just called, says he wants some recognition since he has been around for a few centuries.
” “Laws are like sausages. It is best not to see them being made.””
Bismark
haha
Yea, it is a cruel world out there….. Nature is the coldest thing in all existence, as cold as a meteor in space.. I lived a fair number of years in remote camps, in wild places, and the beauty is great indeed – but the coldness – the utter lack of compassion, of care, of any human emotion, of love, – it weighs on you, remote wilds solitary… you feel that quality – there it is in all its astounding beauty, yet it is utterly cold to you and to all the life – it is like how true dark is the absence of light – true nature is the absence of compassion and love, of hate too – but it is cold – it just is hugeness and trillions of things are living, and suffering, and ultimately dieing of want or harm – and on it goes for ever…
I have always felt understanding of the Hindu God, Juggernaut. He drives a mighty wagon of huge mass, with giant stone wheels, and inexorable it keeps on rolling forward – crushing all life before it, extinguishing life, and then behind the wheels springs up new life, to grow, breed, live, suffer or thrive, and around Juggernaut passes again – eternally, The Great Wheel….
In nature a creature has, say 6 kits a year, may be one or thirty – but only two will make it to breed – the rest soon being lost to want and harm, as does the mother in her time, and it is not nice death, it is hard – life out there is hard…..
The farm is hard… yes, raised, cared for, and killed soon, maybe not so nicely – but not so bad either…. It all is The Great Wheel, and it is life, and the only way to stop this life which leads to death is to stop life. That is what the vegan believes is humane, to not farm animals, not have them live – I do not know really how that is better….
I have seen too much suffering in my time and it weighs on me – but I happily eat my pork, my chicken,,, it is the great wheel, and I will finish my turn one day….and I know how easy I have had it, and I try to remember to be thankful for all – there is great beauty in existence, and the Love we humans can feel – it is worth it all if one is not too unfortunate…. but it is hard…
Not reading. Conventional pig farming is one of the cruellest things humans do…. And the list of what atrocities humans are capable of is long. Pork will not cross my lips and has not done for many decades.
Not reading. Conventional pig farming is one of the cruellest things humans do…. And the list of what atrocities humans are capable of is long. Pork will not cross my lips and has not done for many decades.
Having recently moved to Wiltshire, my wife and I, both pork lovers, were looking forward to great local produce. We are lucky enough to be able to afford to pay for premium products but so far we have found none so are considering getting it shipped up from our previously local farm in Sussex.
Having recently moved to Wiltshire, my wife and I, both pork lovers, were looking forward to great local produce. We are lucky enough to be able to afford to pay for premium products but so far we have found none so are considering getting it shipped up from our previously local farm in Sussex.
As I write, there are two chops of pannage pork sitting in the kitchen awaiting their fate as Mrs D’s and my dinner. So I’m all in favour of eating pork from happy pigs. Perhaps I’m fortunate in having local sources of such food.
However, it’s disappointing to see a farmer yet again calling for food imports to be banned. Since there is no prospect of British farmers being able to supply more than 50% or so of the nation’s food, seeking to deny the less well-off affordable food from overseas in the middle of a cost of living crisis is self-serving special pleading of a high order.
As I write, there are two chops of pannage pork sitting in the kitchen awaiting their fate as Mrs D’s and my dinner. So I’m all in favour of eating pork from happy pigs. Perhaps I’m fortunate in having local sources of such food.
However, it’s disappointing to see a farmer yet again calling for food imports to be banned. Since there is no prospect of British farmers being able to supply more than 50% or so of the nation’s food, seeking to deny the less well-off affordable food from overseas in the middle of a cost of living crisis is self-serving special pleading of a high order.
I’m amazed to read that pork smuggling into Britain is big business
I’m amazed to read that pork smuggling into Britain is big business
You have omitted to mention the implications of the ban on using zinc oxide as a medicine for pigs. The ban has been introduced by the EU, ostensibly for environmental reasons, but is likely to lead to increased use of antibiotics on pig farms. The UK is following the EU in bringing in this ban – even though there is no evidence base justifying this in the UK, which thanks to Brexit could opt to diverge should it wish.
You have omitted to mention the implications of the ban on using zinc oxide as a medicine for pigs. The ban has been introduced by the EU, ostensibly for environmental reasons, but is likely to lead to increased use of antibiotics on pig farms. The UK is following the EU in bringing in this ban – even though there is no evidence base justifying this in the UK, which thanks to Brexit could opt to diverge should it wish.