If you listen to her interview with Andrew Sullivan she comes across wonderfully; she doesn’t think men are rotters, in fact, I got the impression, she rather liked men. I don’t think she’s the sort who would have thought that.
She’s an out and proud lesbian looking for an unobtainable sex object. In the same way my mother didn’t want to know Rock Hudson was gay (not because she was homophobic but because it destroyed the fantasy surrounding him), Kathleen Stock does not want reality to destroy/ impose on her fantasies: wants the Disney of yore experience.
Dead right. as Phyddeaux points out, my issue here is that my similar fantasy, as a straight man, is no longer acceptable in public discourse. My problem is with the double standards, not with Kathleen Stock.
I never thought Hollywood was homophobic in the past. Those that ran it were very aware of the impact of destroying people’s fantasies or illusions. If it had been known Rock Hudson was gay, he was unlikely to have been such a popular actor (macho, sexy, superstar) amongst both men and women, they would no longer want to see his films. He would no longer make huge amounts of money for Hollywood. Hollywood was all about illusion and fantasy but it had to fit a particular narrative for the films to sell. Apparent homophobia was more about protecting the product (as long as people were discreet it didn’t matter, Influence would be used to suppress stories that might have a negative impact). Making woke superhero films does not make the kind of money non-woke superhero films do. Kathleen Stock has distanced herself from Dua Lipa precisely because she now thinks she knows too much about her, which is precisely what Hollywood in the past wanted to avoid.
Obviously so I would have thought.
Rock Hudson popularity stemmed form his attractiveness to women. If they learned that he was gay it would destroy the fantasy and his popularity would nose dive.
I would imagine the same would happen today if, say, Brad Pitt, came out as gay
As it stands, Brad Pitt is a gay icon as well as being an object of fantasy for millions of women. I guess in the same way being a lesbian doesn’t put men off, being heterosexual doesn’t put gay men off.
Talent, you are joking.
You think it some kind of evolutionary phenomena that overwhelmingly it extremely attractive young people who seem to be endowed with acting talent.
I did not find the article at all interesting. I would far rather read an article on abortion by Kathleen Stock. My own ideas have been developing and I think it is a fascinating area for debate. It would take courage though to explore arguments feminists disapprove of.
I think social constructivism is the perfect vehicle for double think. Meghan Markle first made me aware of the extent of the hypocrisy of both the woke and feminists. Within a few weeks, she wrote an article in the New York Times in which she expressed her expectation the world should mourn her miscarriage with her, and announced her horror at the overturning of Wade vs Roe claiming it was tantamount to destroying a woman’s right to choose. She advocates for both the mourning and the heartless destruction of the same physical object. The only thing that differs is how the object is represented. The social construction associated with the physical reality. To social constructivists all that matters is the social construction, everything else is irrelevant, but because a social construction contains nothing indestructible, it is threatened by words (or even prayers) hence the need to silence detractors. Those who are driven by the desire for power want to control thought. Those to whom truth matters (a small minority I suspect) are a constant threat to the power hungry propagandists.
That’s because oppression is a relationship between categoriies of people, not between individuals.
as an interesting, aside, that’s why oj simpson was acquited. After all, the glove did not fit.
I’m not sure of the context of your comment, but in a vacuum it’s well put. Ignore the downvotes. Person-to-person abuse, or simple bad luck will always be oppression to lots of misguided people.
She’s a top artist with influence. Too bad she is a role model, especially considering her anti-semitism. That alone should make her less popular rather than more popular.
Actually, Foucault was critical of Roland Barthes, he didn’t say that authorship doesn’t exist, but that we don’t really know what we mean by authorship, that we can’t easily delineate between what is inside and outside of the process of authorship – using, for example, the work of Nietzsche, what counts as a legitimate part of his oeuvre and what doesn’t? Do all his notes count, does the will-to-power count, do his post-breakdown ramblings count? Foucault’s point is that authorship is a socially constructed category and I’m no fan of social constructivism in general, but it’s probably true to say that some things are socially constructed and authorship almost certainly fits within that category.
I know its popular to bash Foucault, and he probably shouldn’t be held in such high esteem either, but some of his work is actually pretty well thought out and reasonable – discpline and punish, in my opinion, is a pretty accurate description of the changing relationship between subjectivity and power.
Thank you for this very informative and thoughtful response. Too easily people dismiss any ideas by modern thinkers (in particular from the continent as I have found) as self-evidently up itself and not employing any form or rationality. Thanks for the antidote!
Jonathan Andrews
3 months ago
Lovely, funny article from Ms Stock.
Sexist pig as I am, I loved her line “I may have well-known feminist tendencies, but in pop musical terms I’m more of a commitment-phobe who just wants to be able to enjoy a pleasantly undemanding high from a beautiful female for three minutes without having to listen to her talk afterwards.” super witty
Kathleen Stock a really clever person
Reminds me of a poem by Browning – My last Duchess. The duke admired the duchess’s beauty but disliked her behaviour so had her killed – he preferred to gaze at and show off a portrait of her: he preferred a 2-dimensional representation to the 3-dimensional reality.
Pure genius, the line – I gave commands and all smiles stopped together – is chilling. I hope I have quoted it correctly, I am relying on memories over forty-years- old.
David Hirst
2 months ago
‘As with women’s magazine writing generally, the main underlying premise seems to be to educate readers about whichever social norms are currently hot.’
God, yes I’ve had _decades_ to articulate that, but never got beyond a vague feeling. Cheers Prof.
LEON STEPHENS
2 months ago
Oh and by the way, when did Kosovo glue itself onto Albania? Or when did Albania annex it? (She says Lipa’s parents came from Kosovo, but went back to Albania.) I don’t catch all the news…
AC Harper
3 months ago
Although I’m not a believer in absolute rules I do accept that uncomprehensive rules of thumb have some use. And one of those ‘more likely than not’ rules is that celebrities who try to burnish their image with ‘good causes’ sometimes pick causes that turn out to be scams or prejudice in a posh suit.
It would be interesting to keep a track of all the good causes that turn out to be bad causes and the celebrities that initially supported them. Then they might be a little more likely to do due diligence (or have someone do it for them).
“And one of those ‘more likely than not’ rules is that celebrities who try to burnish their image with ‘good causes’ sometimes pick causes that turn out to be scams or prejudice in a posh suit.”
The point is that if the primary purpose is to improve their image, the expenditure of money and time constitutes an investment, not a charitable act. A great many celebrities give their time and money quietly because they want to actually do some good of course, but the ones who do so within a high-profile effort don’t qualify for recognition, in my opinion.
Steve Murray
3 months ago
A superb demonstration of the art of irony!
Kathleen riffs on her pop preferences – Kathleen the erstwhile cancelled philosopher – as a means of demonstrating her point. I’ve absolutely no doubt many won’t get it, and await the “what’s the point of this article?” dumbfoundedness.
In the process, she takes us on a tour of arch female cultural multi-genre engagement designed to hit us in the Balkans, and why not?! Perfect as a pre-Christmas apertif in an edgy cocktail bar with low lighting cut through by body-piercing pink neon and the background hum of a cervix-provoking bassline.
Maybe you are trying too hard!
I didn’t pay much attention as I skimmed it, so I will have to read it properly. I would say though, that when it comes to pop music, irony can be imagined, and I have met philosophers whose taste in music is, well, unbelievable.
I disagree. The whole article is ironic in the sense that she directly turns the pop star turned thinker on it’s head, with great effect.
There’s also the aspect of admiring two women of Albanian heritage who’re contributing to the UK’s popular culture. That could be coincidental, of course, but pertinent nonetheless.
It’s effortless, btw.
“her characteristic blank-faced insolence” sounds repulsive to me.
polidori redux
3 months ago
“Henceforth, I’m switching my allegiance to Rita Ora, still pleasingly one-dimensional in my mind, equally gorgeous, and responsible for this little bit of pop heaven among other things.”
I had a listen. Heard worse. Heard far more engaging singers than her, to my ears. Musical taste is clearly a very individual thing!
Kathleen is impressed too easily. I find that piece substandard in several ways: no clear structured finale, ends abruptly out of nowhere, schizophrenic between major and minor keys, and the descent into warbled mumbo-jumbo three or four times over
LEON STEPHENS
2 months ago
So if she didn’t want to know about all the details of the *gorgeous* young singer’s psyche, why did she bother with the Newsletter in the first place? I’ve never heard of Dua Lipa myself, and therefore am much less interested in her (on any level) than is Ms Stock. So I’m wondering, Why did *I* bother with this article? Well, it’s because Kathleen Stock has some very interesting things to say. None of them is in this article, however.
Or maybe you just don’t understand the delicious irony she’s employed to illustrate some very pertinent cultural issues.
Your asinine assumption (earlier) that i’m a fan of pink neon gives it away.
Ian Stewart
3 months ago
“This may be patent nonsense when it comes to novels, but it surely works for pop songs — probably because they aren’t art at all and were never supposed to be.”
Pop music may no longer be as artistically relevant now, but it’s still clearly art. Surprised at Kathleen dismissing it so casually for the mere purpose of her article.
The ‘concept’ albums of the sixties and seventies aspired to be ‘Art’, some even succeeded. But most commercial pop is primarily aimed at making money, any ‘art’ is accidental – unless you adopt the broadest definition of art. Is a production run of Elvis on black velvet art? Flying plaster ducks on the wall?
any “popularity” is accidental, I would wager by AC’s terms. If you finally reached that exclusive & elusive category of “art”, then whatever popularity you obtain is beside the point… as long as you didn’t intend in the first place for your work to reach a mass audience, of course.
An instrumental version of fairy tale of New York is playing on classic fm. I don’t know the actual intentions of Jem Finer and Shane MacGowan when it was written (raw social commentary, which has now fallen foul of the censors, I guess), but it wasn’t to create a Christmas hit pop song. Shane MacGowan intrigues me.
sure, it can be, if done with enough intention and genuine purpose and creativity. Regarding your “concept albums” jab; were The Beatles not “art” until Sgt. Pepper’s? Or did they start being “art” on Rubber Soul, even if it wasn’t a proper concept album? Many people dismissed “the greatest band in the 20th century” at first, seeing them as “primarily aimed at making money”.
“any ‘art’ is accidental” is quite cynical. If you have an eye for beauty and emotional expression and know how to capture and portray that on some creation or other, it doesn’t really matter whether the final intent of the shareholders is to end up on Billboard or not. Way too many people collaborate on a single release of pop music for the end product to not contain several facets of “art” when properly done with true intention (something lacking more and more on this current digital reality). What about Spielberg, are his blockbusters not “art” while his dramas are? Or are none of his movies “art” because he has such a distinctly Hollywood eye?
I recall reading previously how classical music analysts (yes, they existed) at the time of the Beatles rise actually sought to technically explain to classical music lovers the ‘art’ of their music through rising tenths, chords, etc!!
I personally feel the prog rock music movement was definitely intended to be art – they really didn’t care about popularity; whilst other music movements did represent art as a new form of the people expressing themselves through music – punk, rap, even the awful acid house music produced for raves.
I have never understood that arbitrary “highbrow” discussion of “what constitutes true art”. It confuses me twofold when he (or she) who is dismissing the artistic value of something, also greatly enjoys it
John Riordan
2 months ago
“..French philosophers such as Roland Barthes and Michel Foucault were fond of saying that an understanding of an author’s biography or intentions are largely irrelevant to artistic appreciation.”
It appears they’ve said something that makes sense for once. At least, if you insist that art’s value must lie in some sort of objective relation to truth, the point being that the artist extracts his art from reality in a manner similar to how a miner digs and extracts a gold nugget from the ground, and nobody cares about the background and intentions of the miner in such a context.
Of course, that’s not a safe assumption for postmodernism, which seems to possess the ambition to ignore or mutate truth as part of art’s purpose, but most people of sense have never accepted such nonsense.
Last edited 15 days ago by John Riordan
Rick Hart
2 months ago
Perhaps its me, but in the picture Lipa’s face looks like Arnie Schwarzenegger.
Judging by the upticks, I don’t think it is, actually.
Mike Reed
2 months ago
Ahem, her parents moved to London in 1995, fleeing the war that started in 1998. Also, Kosovo is not in Albania. And finally, malignant nationalism is nothing to be romanticized, even when it comes from a pop star. In fact, especially when it comes from a pop star with massive social influence. Other than that, she really is pretty great 🙂
Hey, wasn’t that a T.S. Eliot issue? Reading a novel should not be influenced by knowing about the author…
Katleen’s article did remind me of a portion of one of Eliot’s poems:
“We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us… and we drown.”
― T. S. Eliot, The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock and Other Poems
Frank McCusker
2 months ago
“I want bright melodic hooks that edge into melancholy, spiky basslines that drill into my brain, and uncomplicated lyrics that speak frankly of love and longing — preferably delivered by a gorgeous female firing a metric ton of attitude straight at the camera.”
Each to their own I guess. As someone who grew up transformed by punk, I want atonal aggression, delivered by people who looked ordinary.
As I note in a short blog, “Modern pop is in probably a worse state than it was before punk in the mid-70s. It’s a respectable career option for beige bourgeois jollification for young people with pension plans.”
See: https://ayenaw.com/2022/08/27/a-jolly-day-out/
and https://ayenaw.com/2022/08/13/pop-will-eat-itself-using-the-correct-cutlery/
David Ryan
2 months ago
“What do you want from a pop star? Personally, I don’t want anything too ambitious. I want bright melodic hooks that edge into melancholy, spiky basslines that drill into my brain, and uncomplicated lyrics that speak frankly of love and longing — preferably delivered by a gorgeous female firing a metric ton of attitude straight at the camera.” Never mind that stuff Kathleen. Try the Pogues, A pair of brown eyes, rainy night in Soho, dirty old town, any of their stuff really. You won’t be disappointed
Gayle Rosenthal
2 months ago
Dua Lipa is an anti-semite, probably born of her Muslim upbringing. Despite her talent, and I did explore her music for about one minute, her anti-semitism is a big turn-off.
Rex Pagan
2 months ago
Auf dem Foto oben sieht Ms Lipa aus wie die Tochter von Arnold Schwarzenegger
Ben Shipley
1 month ago
I had the same experience with Jessica Chastain. I was a huge fan of her acting and loved her movies, good and bad. Then she was shown throwing her middle finger at American Independence Day last July, and now I can’t bear the sight of her work. No one would call me jingoistic and, as a lifelong expat, I’m barely an American, but her gesture was just so stupid and entitled and ignorant of the very people who gave her a career that it ruined me forever. I don’t want to know a thing about an artist, especially in America and Hollywood. Otherwise, I’ll probably never see another movie.
Music I would listen to on an enormously different emotional and mental state than I would Dua Lipa, but thanks for the recommendation, I have been delaying listening to Melt-Banana for far too long. Let’s start here
Bonkers! But good luck to them, for as the old song goes “tomorrow belongs to me”!
Graeme McNeil
2 months ago
I often wonder why very dull middle aged men feel the need to comment on pieces like this to tell us that they have never heard of (insert name of young popular entertainer here). Do you think Dua Lipa, or anybody else for that matter, cares that you haven’t bought any music in 25 years or longer and that your musical taste stopped developing somewhere between the Eagles and Dire Straits?
Dua Lipa, artists like her, and their fans, are young, vibrant and awesome – the future will be with them. Better get used to it, gramps!
Mainly because A dull middle aged woman wrote about them.
ANd if you’re the Graeme McNeil who wrote books for the Black Library-your writing style is appalling.
Simply, if a man had written this he’d be told not to objectify women …
If you listen to her interview with Andrew Sullivan she comes across wonderfully; she doesn’t think men are rotters, in fact, I got the impression, she rather liked men. I don’t think she’s the sort who would have thought that.
I don’t believe that Tim is criticising Kathleen – he’s simply highlighting that if a man had written this article, he’d be roundly chided.
She’s an out and proud lesbian looking for an unobtainable sex object. In the same way my mother didn’t want to know Rock Hudson was gay (not because she was homophobic but because it destroyed the fantasy surrounding him), Kathleen Stock does not want reality to destroy/ impose on her fantasies: wants the Disney of yore experience.
Dead right. as Phyddeaux points out, my issue here is that my similar fantasy, as a straight man, is no longer acceptable in public discourse. My problem is with the double standards, not with Kathleen Stock.
I completely agree with you. My intention was to illustrate the double standard.
I never thought Hollywood was homophobic in the past. Those that ran it were very aware of the impact of destroying people’s fantasies or illusions. If it had been known Rock Hudson was gay, he was unlikely to have been such a popular actor (macho, sexy, superstar) amongst both men and women, they would no longer want to see his films. He would no longer make huge amounts of money for Hollywood. Hollywood was all about illusion and fantasy but it had to fit a particular narrative for the films to sell. Apparent homophobia was more about protecting the product (as long as people were discreet it didn’t matter, Influence would be used to suppress stories that might have a negative impact). Making woke superhero films does not make the kind of money non-woke superhero films do. Kathleen Stock has distanced herself from Dua Lipa precisely because she now thinks she knows too much about her, which is precisely what Hollywood in the past wanted to avoid.
Obviously so I would have thought.
Rock Hudson popularity stemmed form his attractiveness to women. If they learned that he was gay it would destroy the fantasy and his popularity would nose dive.
I would imagine the same would happen today if, say, Brad Pitt, came out as gay
As it stands, Brad Pitt is a gay icon as well as being an object of fantasy for millions of women. I guess in the same way being a lesbian doesn’t put men off, being heterosexual doesn’t put gay men off.
True, but it is his appeal to women that makes him a star
I think his talent makes him a star, his appeal to women makes him a superstar.
Talent, you are joking.
You think it some kind of evolutionary phenomena that overwhelmingly it extremely attractive young people who seem to be endowed with acting talent.
Or if Tom Cruise, just to give a completely random example, did.
I did not find the article at all interesting. I would far rather read an article on abortion by Kathleen Stock. My own ideas have been developing and I think it is a fascinating area for debate. It would take courage though to explore arguments feminists disapprove of.
I’m curious where you’re ideas on abortion have been evolving to.
I think social constructivism is the perfect vehicle for double think. Meghan Markle first made me aware of the extent of the hypocrisy of both the woke and feminists. Within a few weeks, she wrote an article in the New York Times in which she expressed her expectation the world should mourn her miscarriage with her, and announced her horror at the overturning of Wade vs Roe claiming it was tantamount to destroying a woman’s right to choose. She advocates for both the mourning and the heartless destruction of the same physical object. The only thing that differs is how the object is represented. The social construction associated with the physical reality. To social constructivists all that matters is the social construction, everything else is irrelevant, but because a social construction contains nothing indestructible, it is threatened by words (or even prayers) hence the need to silence detractors. Those who are driven by the desire for power want to control thought. Those to whom truth matters (a small minority I suspect) are a constant threat to the power hungry propagandists.
Yes I’m always confused by these people who mourn miscarriage but then are unbothered by purposeful killing of the unborn.
Yes, it wasn’t as interesting as Kathleen Stock usually is, but she deals a nice blow to vapid talent.
It’s Christmas.. maybe KS is relaxing at home with a mince pie
That’s because oppression is a relationship between categoriies of people, not between individuals.
as an interesting, aside, that’s why oj simpson was acquited. After all, the glove did not fit.
I’m not sure of the context of your comment, but in a vacuum it’s well put. Ignore the downvotes. Person-to-person abuse, or simple bad luck will always be oppression to lots of misguided people.
There are lots of double standards in this world. This is an extremely minor one.
She’s a top artist with influence. Too bad she is a role model, especially considering her anti-semitism. That alone should make her less popular rather than more popular.
Not seeing any objectification – it’s mostly about music.
Er. Can someone give an example of objectification here?
So?
No man would have written this.
Not surprising that was Michel Foucaults feeling about artists private lives, given what he was up to.
Very enjoyable article!
Actually, Foucault was critical of Roland Barthes, he didn’t say that authorship doesn’t exist, but that we don’t really know what we mean by authorship, that we can’t easily delineate between what is inside and outside of the process of authorship – using, for example, the work of Nietzsche, what counts as a legitimate part of his oeuvre and what doesn’t? Do all his notes count, does the will-to-power count, do his post-breakdown ramblings count? Foucault’s point is that authorship is a socially constructed category and I’m no fan of social constructivism in general, but it’s probably true to say that some things are socially constructed and authorship almost certainly fits within that category.
I know its popular to bash Foucault, and he probably shouldn’t be held in such high esteem either, but some of his work is actually pretty well thought out and reasonable – discpline and punish, in my opinion, is a pretty accurate description of the changing relationship between subjectivity and power.
Since humans name everything then everything is socially constructed, a dragon is as socially constructed as a turnip.
As for Foucault there is possibly something there behind the dross, but his followers are know nothings.
Thank you for this very informative and thoughtful response. Too easily people dismiss any ideas by modern thinkers (in particular from the continent as I have found) as self-evidently up itself and not employing any form or rationality. Thanks for the antidote!
Lovely, funny article from Ms Stock.
Sexist pig as I am, I loved her line “I may have well-known feminist tendencies, but in pop musical terms I’m more of a commitment-phobe who just wants to be able to enjoy a pleasantly undemanding high from a beautiful female for three minutes without having to listen to her talk afterwards.” super witty
Kathleen Stock a really clever person
Yes, I like that.
#metoo
Wouldnt we all?
Reminds me of a poem by Browning – My last Duchess. The duke admired the duchess’s beauty but disliked her behaviour so had her killed – he preferred to gaze at and show off a portrait of her: he preferred a 2-dimensional representation to the 3-dimensional reality.
That poem gave me the creeps as a schoolboy. Still does, when I think about it – which I suspect was Browning’s point. Thanks for the reminder.
Pure genius, the line – I gave commands and all smiles stopped together – is chilling. I hope I have quoted it correctly, I am relying on memories over forty-years- old.
‘As with women’s magazine writing generally, the main underlying premise seems to be to educate readers about whichever social norms are currently hot.’
God, yes I’ve had _decades_ to articulate that, but never got beyond a vague feeling. Cheers Prof.
Oh and by the way, when did Kosovo glue itself onto Albania? Or when did Albania annex it? (She says Lipa’s parents came from Kosovo, but went back to Albania.) I don’t catch all the news…
Although I’m not a believer in absolute rules I do accept that uncomprehensive rules of thumb have some use. And one of those ‘more likely than not’ rules is that celebrities who try to burnish their image with ‘good causes’ sometimes pick causes that turn out to be scams or prejudice in a posh suit.
It would be interesting to keep a track of all the good causes that turn out to be bad causes and the celebrities that initially supported them. Then they might be a little more likely to do due diligence (or have someone do it for them).
It’s probably been done. but I , for one, would love to see it.
“And one of those ‘more likely than not’ rules is that celebrities who try to burnish their image with ‘good causes’ sometimes pick causes that turn out to be scams or prejudice in a posh suit.”
The point is that if the primary purpose is to improve their image, the expenditure of money and time constitutes an investment, not a charitable act. A great many celebrities give their time and money quietly because they want to actually do some good of course, but the ones who do so within a high-profile effort don’t qualify for recognition, in my opinion.
A superb demonstration of the art of irony!
Kathleen riffs on her pop preferences – Kathleen the erstwhile cancelled philosopher – as a means of demonstrating her point. I’ve absolutely no doubt many won’t get it, and await the “what’s the point of this article?” dumbfoundedness.
In the process, she takes us on a tour of arch female cultural multi-genre engagement designed to hit us in the Balkans, and why not?! Perfect as a pre-Christmas apertif in an edgy cocktail bar with low lighting cut through by body-piercing pink neon and the background hum of a cervix-provoking bassline.
Maybe you are trying too hard!
I didn’t pay much attention as I skimmed it, so I will have to read it properly. I would say though, that when it comes to pop music, irony can be imagined, and I have met philosophers whose taste in music is, well, unbelievable.
I disagree. The whole article is ironic in the sense that she directly turns the pop star turned thinker on it’s head, with great effect.
There’s also the aspect of admiring two women of Albanian heritage who’re contributing to the UK’s popular culture. That could be coincidental, of course, but pertinent nonetheless.
It’s effortless, btw.
I just hope all of the Albanians coming to the UK are not as anti-semitic as Dua Lipa is.
If you say so, Steve: “arch female cultural multi-genre engagement” – priceless neobabble nonsense..Is pink neon something very trendy at the moment?
That’s precisely the irony intended by Kathleen’s “on-trend” analysis! I don’t particularly blame you for not “getting it”, or my response.
Best comment I’ve read in this thread, by far. Thanks.
I see that Kathleen Stock likes ’em pretty but dumb.
“her characteristic blank-faced insolence” sounds repulsive to me.
“Henceforth, I’m switching my allegiance to Rita Ora, still pleasingly one-dimensional in my mind, equally gorgeous, and responsible for this little bit of pop heaven among other things.”
I had a listen. Heard worse. Heard far more engaging singers than her, to my ears. Musical taste is clearly a very individual thing!
…and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Well quite.
Kathleen is impressed too easily. I find that piece substandard in several ways: no clear structured finale, ends abruptly out of nowhere, schizophrenic between major and minor keys, and the descent into warbled mumbo-jumbo three or four times over
So if she didn’t want to know about all the details of the *gorgeous* young singer’s psyche, why did she bother with the Newsletter in the first place? I’ve never heard of Dua Lipa myself, and therefore am much less interested in her (on any level) than is Ms Stock. So I’m wondering, Why did *I* bother with this article? Well, it’s because Kathleen Stock has some very interesting things to say. None of them is in this article, however.
Or maybe you just don’t understand the delicious irony she’s employed to illustrate some very pertinent cultural issues.
Your asinine assumption (earlier) that i’m a fan of pink neon gives it away.
“This may be patent nonsense when it comes to novels, but it surely works for pop songs — probably because they aren’t art at all and were never supposed to be.”
Pop music may no longer be as artistically relevant now, but it’s still clearly art. Surprised at Kathleen dismissing it so casually for the mere purpose of her article.
The ‘concept’ albums of the sixties and seventies aspired to be ‘Art’, some even succeeded. But most commercial pop is primarily aimed at making money, any ‘art’ is accidental – unless you adopt the broadest definition of art. Is a production run of Elvis on black velvet art? Flying plaster ducks on the wall?
Does it become art when it is orchestrated and played on classic fm, eg. Bowie.
any “popularity” is accidental, I would wager by AC’s terms. If you finally reached that exclusive & elusive category of “art”, then whatever popularity you obtain is beside the point… as long as you didn’t intend in the first place for your work to reach a mass audience, of course.
An instrumental version of fairy tale of New York is playing on classic fm. I don’t know the actual intentions of Jem Finer and Shane MacGowan when it was written (raw social commentary, which has now fallen foul of the censors, I guess), but it wasn’t to create a Christmas hit pop song. Shane MacGowan intrigues me.
sure, it can be, if done with enough intention and genuine purpose and creativity. Regarding your “concept albums” jab; were The Beatles not “art” until Sgt. Pepper’s? Or did they start being “art” on Rubber Soul, even if it wasn’t a proper concept album? Many people dismissed “the greatest band in the 20th century” at first, seeing them as “primarily aimed at making money”.
“any ‘art’ is accidental” is quite cynical. If you have an eye for beauty and emotional expression and know how to capture and portray that on some creation or other, it doesn’t really matter whether the final intent of the shareholders is to end up on Billboard or not. Way too many people collaborate on a single release of pop music for the end product to not contain several facets of “art” when properly done with true intention (something lacking more and more on this current digital reality). What about Spielberg, are his blockbusters not “art” while his dramas are? Or are none of his movies “art” because he has such a distinctly Hollywood eye?
I recall reading previously how classical music analysts (yes, they existed) at the time of the Beatles rise actually sought to technically explain to classical music lovers the ‘art’ of their music through rising tenths, chords, etc!!
I personally feel the prog rock music movement was definitely intended to be art – they really didn’t care about popularity; whilst other music movements did represent art as a new form of the people expressing themselves through music – punk, rap, even the awful acid house music produced for raves.
I have never understood that arbitrary “highbrow” discussion of “what constitutes true art”. It confuses me twofold when he (or she) who is dismissing the artistic value of something, also greatly enjoys it
“..French philosophers such as Roland Barthes and Michel Foucault were fond of saying that an understanding of an author’s biography or intentions are largely irrelevant to artistic appreciation.”
It appears they’ve said something that makes sense for once. At least, if you insist that art’s value must lie in some sort of objective relation to truth, the point being that the artist extracts his art from reality in a manner similar to how a miner digs and extracts a gold nugget from the ground, and nobody cares about the background and intentions of the miner in such a context.
Of course, that’s not a safe assumption for postmodernism, which seems to possess the ambition to ignore or mutate truth as part of art’s purpose, but most people of sense have never accepted such nonsense.
Perhaps its me, but in the picture Lipa’s face looks like Arnie Schwarzenegger.
Benn allured somewhat by the trans aesthetic I can only surmise
Yes, it’s just you.
Judging by the upticks, I don’t think it is, actually.
Ahem, her parents moved to London in 1995, fleeing the war that started in 1998. Also, Kosovo is not in Albania. And finally, malignant nationalism is nothing to be romanticized, even when it comes from a pop star. In fact, especially when it comes from a pop star with massive social influence. Other than that, she really is pretty great 🙂
Who? What? Do I care?
Enough to comment, apparently.
Heyho
Junk food, junk music, junk culture.
Do yourself a favour and try Shostakovich. It takes time and commitment but make the effort and you’ll never listen to elevator pop again.
She can’t be all bad if she’s got a whippet.
Oh come on admit it guys, this shit is hideously processed through an aural cheese grater and is no real *musical* use to anyone.
A metric ton is simply a tonne.
Kathleen seems to have a rather confused understanding of the relationship between Kosovo and Albania.
Stick to philosophy, darling.
The picture of the grandfathers of Ora and Lipa was worth the price of reading this article.
Never ever even heard of the woman!
Didn’t she run at Newmarket a few years ago?
Why don’t we compare her looks to those of, oh I don’t know, your wife?
I wonder how Mrs Stanhope would look compared to Ms. Lipa?
Mrs Stanhope died a year ago, but thank you for that banal remark.
Incidentally how does your Mrs shape up against this Ms Lipa person?
About the same I’d say.
Your Missus looks like Arnie?
God, she sounds tiresome
Hey, wasn’t that a T.S. Eliot issue? Reading a novel should not be influenced by knowing about the author…
Katleen’s article did remind me of a portion of one of Eliot’s poems:
“We have lingered in the chambers of the sea
By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown
Till human voices wake us… and we drown.”
― T. S. Eliot, The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock and Other Poems
“I want bright melodic hooks that edge into melancholy, spiky basslines that drill into my brain, and uncomplicated lyrics that speak frankly of love and longing — preferably delivered by a gorgeous female firing a metric ton of attitude straight at the camera.”
Each to their own I guess. As someone who grew up transformed by punk, I want atonal aggression, delivered by people who looked ordinary.
As I note in a short blog, “Modern pop is in probably a worse state than it was before punk in the mid-70s. It’s a respectable career option for beige bourgeois jollification for young people with pension plans.”
See:
https://ayenaw.com/2022/08/27/a-jolly-day-out/
and
https://ayenaw.com/2022/08/13/pop-will-eat-itself-using-the-correct-cutlery/
“What do you want from a pop star? Personally, I don’t want anything too ambitious. I want bright melodic hooks that edge into melancholy, spiky basslines that drill into my brain, and uncomplicated lyrics that speak frankly of love and longing — preferably delivered by a gorgeous female firing a metric ton of attitude straight at the camera.” Never mind that stuff Kathleen. Try the Pogues, A pair of brown eyes, rainy night in Soho, dirty old town, any of their stuff really. You won’t be disappointed
Dua Lipa is an anti-semite, probably born of her Muslim upbringing. Despite her talent, and I did explore her music for about one minute, her anti-semitism is a big turn-off.
Auf dem Foto oben sieht Ms Lipa aus wie die Tochter von Arnold Schwarzenegger
I had the same experience with Jessica Chastain. I was a huge fan of her acting and loved her movies, good and bad. Then she was shown throwing her middle finger at American Independence Day last July, and now I can’t bear the sight of her work. No one would call me jingoistic and, as a lifelong expat, I’m barely an American, but her gesture was just so stupid and entitled and ignorant of the very people who gave her a career that it ruined me forever. I don’t want to know a thing about an artist, especially in America and Hollywood. Otherwise, I’ll probably never see another movie.
Certainly not the worst music.
Never even heard of the woman…
Forget the boring vanilla beige etc Dua Lipa – try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDZyZmERwlE
Music I would listen to on an enormously different emotional and mental state than I would Dua Lipa, but thanks for the recommendation, I have been delaying listening to Melt-Banana for far too long. Let’s start here
Bonkers! But good luck to them, for as the old song goes “tomorrow belongs to me”!
I often wonder why very dull middle aged men feel the need to comment on pieces like this to tell us that they have never heard of (insert name of young popular entertainer here). Do you think Dua Lipa, or anybody else for that matter, cares that you haven’t bought any music in 25 years or longer and that your musical taste stopped developing somewhere between the Eagles and Dire Straits?
Dua Lipa, artists like her, and their fans, are young, vibrant and awesome – the future will be with them. Better get used to it, gramps!
This might warm your ‘Paddy’ heart:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bzXswoAUi0U
It appears to be some people playing Irish music. You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I am Irish. I’m not.
Carry on.
Not Scotch?
No, I am not a whisky.
I should imagine Mrs McNeil is delighted to hear that!
Mainly because A dull middle aged woman wrote about them.
ANd if you’re the Graeme McNeil who wrote books for the Black Library-your writing style is appalling.