But there is an odd thing going on in the West – our security services, the ones with letters – and numbers, throughout the Five-Eyes, are Rogue.
5-eyes… CIA is not allowed to track Americans – so they have MI6 do it, then give them the data… haha, how to obey the law but violate the spirit of it – I am sure it is recripocated.
The Jan 6 are mostly political prisoners, the crazy Gov Witmer thing, I know they are watching the people here. Homeland is now watching Americans.
Governments are now turning their security State on the Civilians in violation to every rule of Western Constitutions, meddling in Elections – gone….Rogue. China is a slave state I feel – no freedom. Social Credit Scores. Phone tracking, digitizing money, facial, gait, syntax, retina, finger print, DNA – all recognition from millions of cameras, they want that here I guess. –
Then here the Social Media and Google and everyone else is tracking every thing you do – they will be hand in hand with the Government, it is headed that way. Now everyone’s medical records in USA are a dossier on you, they are now linked from all health care providers – for your good…no… Once a CBDC is taken up it is over.
This was what the entire Vaccine thing in the world was – to get the phones to track us with Covid Passports, to make the West like China, to get us used to violations of rights, to allow monitoring and locking and be suspicious of each other. It was not about the flu…..
The world is changing fast – I am glad they are here, but we are getting a bit like their home – lets up hope this can be reversed.
Peter B
3 months ago
Hold on a moment. Before beating ourselves up about not defending democracy in Hong Kong, it’s probably worth remembering that Britain never ran Hong Kong as a democracy ! Let’s leave the hand-wringing and rewriting of history to Chris Patten and co.
That said, it was certainly a lot freer than it is now and no surprise that Hong Kongers who can are voting with their feet. It sounds like they’re good, hard-working, honest people who we’re in many ways lucky to have. We need more people with those values – the ones we used to have.
Noel Chiappa
3 months ago
I think the Hong Kong Chinese, underneath it all, were Chinese, and had a lot in common with Chinese on the mainland, and felt that the British ownership of Hong Kong (HK Island and Kowloon weren’t leased) was an insult to China (which it was, in a way), and thus had positive reactions to the handover. What’s that saying, ‘be careful what you wish for’?
The Chinese government may have been foolish to step on Hong Kong – but maybe from their point of view it was the right move: free thought and free speech were a bigger danger to ‘their’ China than the economic and intellectual creativity of Hong Kong were an advantage.
I’m glad these people have been able to escape – and I’m sure they will be a great benefit to the countries they move to. Hong Kong was an extraordinary place precisely because it united the best of both East and West; hopefully they’ll be able to do it in their new homes. They’ve seen all too well that their dream of a united, free China was just that, a dream.
M. M.
3 months ago
Etan Smallman wrote, “In 2020, following a wave of pro-democracy protests, China imposed a draconian new security law on Hong Kong. … Hundreds of activists and former opposition lawmakers have since been arrested.”
For many decades before the handover of Hong Kong in 1997, the Hong Kongers had been aware of the atrocities committed by the mainland Chinese. Yet, the majority of Hong Kongers in 1997 still supported placing Hong Kong under the rule of Beijing. For most Hong Kongers, Chinese nationalism is more important than human rights or democracy.
Westerners should not waste a drop of blood nor treasure on helping the Chinese in Hong Kong or the rest of China.
If the Chinese genuinely support human rights and democracy, China would already be a Western nation. No foreign power is imposing the current brutal authoritarian government on China. This government exists because the majority of Chinese support it.
Furthermore, in 1997, most Hong Kongers favored (1) unification with China and the concomitant strangulation of human rights over (2) independence as the Republic of Hong Kong and the concomitant guarantee of human rights that they enjoyed under British rule. Indeed, on the day of the handover, millions of Hong Kongers celebrated in public parties. For most Hong Kongers, Chinese nationalism is more important than human rights or democracy. The Chinese (in Hong Kong and elsewhere) differ greatly from the Europeans.
In 1997, a poll by CNN indicated that 60% of Hong Kongers supported unification. (See the reference.)
In other words, the parents of the recent protesters gave Hong Kong to Beijing and, consequently, ensured that it will impose Chinese authoritarianism on Hong Kong in perpetuity.
”A new CNN/Time poll conducted just before the handover with 800 Hong Kong residents seems to indicate they are optimistic. Six out of every 10 residents said they thought reunification with China was a good thing, and one of every two felt that maintaining social order was more important than democracy.”
above from your link
I remember the handover, not well, and am not going to research it, but my feeling was that the lease expired, and so it was a done deal. No 90 miles of water like Taiwan – also the legal lease on Hong Kong expired, and I did not think Britain had any chance to make Hong Kong anything but return to China.
Given that, it would seem the residents would try to make the best of it, they would know acceptance was the path to survival. An ‘It is what it is’ reality. To go into unification with a rebellion mindset (and to have a record of what they thought) would not get off on the right foot. Look – even these immigrants do not wish to speak of what they actually believe to a reporter, anonymously, in UK.
To clarify, the 99 year lease was on the New Territories. HK island and Kowloon had been ceded by China in the mid-C19 and were therefore held in perpetuity. So no lease expiry. The government at the time – negotiations started in earnest in 1979 – decided it would be impractical to hold HK/Kowloon without the NT and consequently all parts of HK were ceded to China in 1997.
Rob C
3 months ago
1000 immigrants in a year’s time out of 5.2 million eligible doesn’t sound like the Hong Kongers are terribly concerned about PRC rule, does i?
1,000 in South Gloucestershire. Clearly the UK figure is very significantly higher. They are also leaving in droves for Canada and Australia, both of which – for some reason – are seen as preferred to the UK.
james boo
3 months ago
I would be greatly surprised if the Chinese immigrant community is under surveillance in Bradley Stoke. Bradley Stoke is heavily inhabited by MoD civil servants working at Abbey Wood. Also Bradley Stoke is in South Gloucester not Bristol.
Do these MOD civil servants speak fluent Cantonese, and do they hang around the Tai Chi class all evening? These HK immigrants are living in a parallel world to us.
The article includes the quote “I think 70% of them actually can’t understand English”
True. But if it were only the spies that can’t speak English it would be easy to filter them out.
What kind of secret service uses spies without language skills, anyway?
Wild stab in the dark here but people’s whose day job is strategic nuclear weapons and Chinese intelligence gathering might get a reaction. I rather regret that I thought the unherd readership was capable objective thought. Clearly things need to put simply for the hard of thinking
In North Korea anyone suspected of being a wrong thinker has their whole family sent to a concentration camp for life, old and young. China may not be quite that (except in Xinjiang Province) but they have the monitoring of every individual as an actual Mania – and the people back home would likely get really bad marks on their Social Credit Score if these ones in UK said anything.
Great immigrants, UK is lucky to have them.
But there is an odd thing going on in the West – our security services, the ones with letters – and numbers, throughout the Five-Eyes, are Rogue.
5-eyes… CIA is not allowed to track Americans – so they have MI6 do it, then give them the data… haha, how to obey the law but violate the spirit of it – I am sure it is recripocated.
The Jan 6 are mostly political prisoners, the crazy Gov Witmer thing, I know they are watching the people here. Homeland is now watching Americans.
Governments are now turning their security State on the Civilians in violation to every rule of Western Constitutions, meddling in Elections – gone….Rogue. China is a slave state I feel – no freedom. Social Credit Scores. Phone tracking, digitizing money, facial, gait, syntax, retina, finger print, DNA – all recognition from millions of cameras, they want that here I guess. –
Then here the Social Media and Google and everyone else is tracking every thing you do – they will be hand in hand with the Government, it is headed that way. Now everyone’s medical records in USA are a dossier on you, they are now linked from all health care providers – for your good…no… Once a CBDC is taken up it is over.
This was what the entire Vaccine thing in the world was – to get the phones to track us with Covid Passports, to make the West like China, to get us used to violations of rights, to allow monitoring and locking and be suspicious of each other. It was not about the flu…..
The world is changing fast – I am glad they are here, but we are getting a bit like their home – lets up hope this can be reversed.
Hold on a moment. Before beating ourselves up about not defending democracy in Hong Kong, it’s probably worth remembering that Britain never ran Hong Kong as a democracy ! Let’s leave the hand-wringing and rewriting of history to Chris Patten and co.
That said, it was certainly a lot freer than it is now and no surprise that Hong Kongers who can are voting with their feet. It sounds like they’re good, hard-working, honest people who we’re in many ways lucky to have. We need more people with those values – the ones we used to have.
I think the Hong Kong Chinese, underneath it all, were Chinese, and had a lot in common with Chinese on the mainland, and felt that the British ownership of Hong Kong (HK Island and Kowloon weren’t leased) was an insult to China (which it was, in a way), and thus had positive reactions to the handover. What’s that saying, ‘be careful what you wish for’?
The Chinese government may have been foolish to step on Hong Kong – but maybe from their point of view it was the right move: free thought and free speech were a bigger danger to ‘their’ China than the economic and intellectual creativity of Hong Kong were an advantage.
I’m glad these people have been able to escape – and I’m sure they will be a great benefit to the countries they move to. Hong Kong was an extraordinary place precisely because it united the best of both East and West; hopefully they’ll be able to do it in their new homes. They’ve seen all too well that their dream of a united, free China was just that, a dream.
Etan Smallman wrote, “In 2020, following a wave of pro-democracy protests, China imposed a draconian new security law on Hong Kong. … Hundreds of activists and former opposition lawmakers have since been arrested.”
For many decades before the handover of Hong Kong in 1997, the Hong Kongers had been aware of the atrocities committed by the mainland Chinese. Yet, the majority of Hong Kongers in 1997 still supported placing Hong Kong under the rule of Beijing. For most Hong Kongers, Chinese nationalism is more important than human rights or democracy.
Westerners should not waste a drop of blood nor treasure on helping the Chinese in Hong Kong or the rest of China.
If the Chinese genuinely support human rights and democracy, China would already be a Western nation. No foreign power is imposing the current brutal authoritarian government on China. This government exists because the majority of Chinese support it.
Furthermore, in 1997, most Hong Kongers favored (1) unification with China and the concomitant strangulation of human rights over (2) independence as the Republic of Hong Kong and the concomitant guarantee of human rights that they enjoyed under British rule. Indeed, on the day of the handover, millions of Hong Kongers celebrated in public parties. For most Hong Kongers, Chinese nationalism is more important than human rights or democracy. The Chinese (in Hong Kong and elsewhere) differ greatly from the Europeans.
In 1997, a poll by CNN indicated that 60% of Hong Kongers supported unification. (See the reference.)
In other words, the parents of the recent protesters gave Hong Kong to Beijing and, consequently, ensured that it will impose Chinese authoritarianism on Hong Kong in perpetuity.
Get more info about this issue.
…
”A new CNN/Time poll conducted just before the handover with 800 Hong Kong residents seems to indicate they are optimistic. Six out of every 10 residents said they thought reunification with China was a good thing, and one of every two felt that maintaining social order was more important than democracy.”
above from your link
I remember the handover, not well, and am not going to research it, but my feeling was that the lease expired, and so it was a done deal. No 90 miles of water like Taiwan – also the legal lease on Hong Kong expired, and I did not think Britain had any chance to make Hong Kong anything but return to China.
Given that, it would seem the residents would try to make the best of it, they would know acceptance was the path to survival. An ‘It is what it is’ reality. To go into unification with a rebellion mindset (and to have a record of what they thought) would not get off on the right foot. Look – even these immigrants do not wish to speak of what they actually believe to a reporter, anonymously, in UK.
To clarify, the 99 year lease was on the New Territories. HK island and Kowloon had been ceded by China in the mid-C19 and were therefore held in perpetuity. So no lease expiry. The government at the time – negotiations started in earnest in 1979 – decided it would be impractical to hold HK/Kowloon without the NT and consequently all parts of HK were ceded to China in 1997.
1000 immigrants in a year’s time out of 5.2 million eligible doesn’t sound like the Hong Kongers are terribly concerned about PRC rule, does i?
1,000 in South Gloucestershire. Clearly the UK figure is very significantly higher. They are also leaving in droves for Canada and Australia, both of which – for some reason – are seen as preferred to the UK.
I would be greatly surprised if the Chinese immigrant community is under surveillance in Bradley Stoke. Bradley Stoke is heavily inhabited by MoD civil servants working at Abbey Wood. Also Bradley Stoke is in South Gloucester not Bristol.
Do these MOD civil servants speak fluent Cantonese, and do they hang around the Tai Chi class all evening? These HK immigrants are living in a parallel world to us.
The article includes the quote “I think 70% of them actually can’t understand English”
The quote “I think 70% of them actually can’t understand English” was about a supposed spy or informer.
True. But if it were only the spies that can’t speak English it would be easy to filter them out.
What kind of secret service uses spies without language skills, anyway?
Wild stab in the dark here but people’s whose day job is strategic nuclear weapons and Chinese intelligence gathering might get a reaction. I rather regret that I thought the unherd readership was capable objective thought. Clearly things need to put simply for the hard of thinking
P.S.
In North Korea anyone suspected of being a wrong thinker has their whole family sent to a concentration camp for life, old and young. China may not be quite that (except in Xinjiang Province) but they have the monitoring of every individual as an actual Mania – and the people back home would likely get really bad marks on their Social Credit Score if these ones in UK said anything.