The story gets one thing right… being accused of rape would end any relationship.
Any women who throws that word around, casually or even in conversation about others, would put herself totally off limits
Gentlemen, Heed this warning. If she uses the rape or abuse terms, throw her back into the world to grow up. You’re not the one for her to grow up with.
Agree. No matter how I felt about her I would walk away fast and never ever reach out to her again.
That the thought would even come into her head would frighten the crap out of me.
Brett H
1 year ago
Lionel, thanks for that piece of writing. It probably took a lot more time and effort than most other articles here that tell me pretty much what I already know. Interesting, too, how a piece of fiction can contribute more than non-fiction. Thanks again.
If it was fiction, as opposed to thinly-disguised biography/autobiography, as is quite common.
AC Harper
1 year ago
Dear Y,
I used to think that MeToo was just another bandwagon for people to jump on. Based on some truth and enabling others to chime in.
I realised after our own break up that for some people MeToo was a cult. It has many of the markers of a cult. The special use of language, the comradeship, the careless distancing from family and loved ones, the immunity to alternative explanations for events. Thank goodness there wasn’t a messiah as well.
I am glad that you appear to have de-programmed yourself, but I do not wish to associate with someone who can get carried away so easily by fashionable rhetoric. Please do not try contacting me again.
Exactly! What kind of infant blames a social media hashtag for her bad behavior in a relationship?
I think #MeToo did a lot of good (and some harm) but it never changed my positive feelings for the men in my life – especially my husband, who is my hero & champion.
Any man who “loses” a woman because of a hashtag is well rid of her (or maybe there were a lot of truly creepy men who got dumped).
Y is not fit to be in any relationship.
Paul Nathanson
1 year ago
So far, no one has mentioned #MeToo in connection with its sudden undermining of the legal system, which had taken centuries to build. This is what happens in every moral panic. This one was hardly the first in recent times. (Remember the destruction that came in the wake of “Recovered Memory Syndrome”?) Victims of serious sexual harassment should seek redress, sure, but not as vigilantes. Their power is synonymous with bypassing the courts of law (which rely for legal and moral legitimacy on due process) and replacing them with the court of public opinion (which relies ultimately not on evidence but on ideological manipulation and emotional hysteria). Like every other institution, the court of law is imperfect, but I’m not convinced that vigilantism will ever, could ever, lead us to utopia.
If we “believe women” (or men or any other group) per se, before even examining the evidence, why have trials at all? Why not simply let howling mobs convince us that justice and revenge are synonymous? Trials, as defined in all Western societies (and many others) require the systematic and objective analysis of evidence, not beliefs–that is, quasi-theological doctrines Whatever #MeToo has done for women (a debatable point, as Shriver points out), the cost to society as a whole has been too high.
I’m astounded that so many comments here seem oblivious about the delicious irony, the perspicacious insight, and the nudge-nudge nuance that Shriver brings to bear on almost anything she writes.
Responding can be cathartic, I quite enjoyed the tale. I did try to place myself in the scene but couldn’t. I’m lucky to have aged out of the #MeToo situation. My youthful encounters are now pleasant memories along with suitable regrets.
I don’t know that anything has changed to be honest. Becomng an adult means learning boundaries, enforcing boundaries, learning how to have and grow healthy relationships with other adults, not focusing on the superficial. Some people in their 40s are no better at this than the typical 20 year old who at least has the excuse of having limited relationship experience. If you have never ended a relationship of any kind for instance… that should be a sign you are doing something wrong. Same is true if you’ve never developed any close long lasting relationships. Discernment and patience is key.
David Giles
1 year ago
Thank you Lionel. Thank you for creating a character who generates no sympathy whatsoever.
N T
1 year ago
Dear Y,
It’s not “me, too”
It’s 100% you, and the next dumb cause you embrace, that will drive the next one away, that drove this one away. There are ways to fix dumb, but sometimes dumb is a signal that it’s time to get out, run, and to never look back.
I think you’re mistaken. Very few human interactions are 100% anything: if we carry the binary approach adopted by single-issue groups and encouraged by social media into the way we view and treat others, we lose two of humanity’s most valuable qualities: nuance and grace.
Nuance, because humans aren’t robots. We’re all a mass of contradictions. None of us are that distant tree, just a shape of a single colour. Get closer and everyone’s a variegated jumble of dark and light. We can’t even be honest with ourselves about what bits of our characters, both dark and light, combine to form even the simplest decisions we make. To view a person or an attitude or a political movement as wholly good or wholly bad is naive and destructive. That’s why single-issue causes are so pernicious.
And grace. Grace to see both good and bad in people and to forgive the bad for the sake of the good. All the simplistic, childish activism that plagues Western society lacks nuance and, because of that, it lacks grace. ‘Four legs good, two legs bad’ is a catchy political slogan, but it’s a deadening way to live and utterly toxic when applied to individuals. That’s why Critical Race Theory, Intersectional Theory – indeed, all theories that cast one individual or way of looking at the world as uniquely good or uniquely bad – are so harmful to us humans.
I agree with you about the toxic effects of academic theories: Intersectional, CRT, and especially Queer Theory. They are dehumanizing and they undermine all social relationships.
There’s a lot to be said for crazy, when you’re young and learning. They’re great fun! Just don’t get deeply involved.
Ethniciodo Rodenydo
1 year ago
“the pressure I’d often felt to go ahead and shag men I didn’t especially like because it was easier to say yes and get it over with than to hold my ground” It would of course never occur that this cuts both ways
Man, you have NO idea.
Thats like saying that a woman who gets wet while being raped actually wanted it.
You would be astounded how many older men look back and realize they slept with a woman only because they were either expected to want to or because they were never taught THEY can say no too.
True, in the end we are only clever animals and a p***y is a p***y.
Peter Johnson
1 year ago
I don’t think women are actually aware of how fully they have internalized the endless feminist rhetoric that they are victims and most things are the fault of men. Upper middle class white women do seem to genuinely believe they are the world’s great victims. I have thought about the advice I will give to my daughters when they leave the nest. Some of it will be cautionary advice about dealing with men – who are indeed sometimes dangerous. However I will also let them know that if they lay on the feminist rhetoric too much they may lose a potential or existing husband. It is tiring to hear it in your own home and many men – I suspect – will choose not to partner with someone who plays the feminist card too often.
This is the real point: the very great reward lately given to claiming to being the victim. That benefit also comes at the very great cost of internalised denial of agency. This was also perfectly illustrated in this story by “lying back” instead of acting in self interest.
John Bonaccorsi
1 year ago
Walker Walker Walker & Walker
Dear Ms. Y:
We are a personal-injury law firm representing your acquaintance and former sexmate Taylor [_______]. With the present letter, we put you on notice that any further attempt by you or any person or entity acting on your behalf to contact him will be regarded by him as harassment. This applies to any in-person approach or to any written or other communication, whether by traditional, electronic, or other means. Note that under existing statutes in both your state of residence and his, subterfuge, such as the false return address you used in writing to him on October 3, constitutes an “outrageous” aggravation, which enables claims for punitive damages.
Sincerely,
T Walker, Name partner
Steve Murray
1 year ago
Would it be too cynical of me to even consider the possibility that this was written, and well-written at that, with a dual purpose? After all, literature is sometimes at its best with ambiguity lurking in the shadows.
For all those who see echoes of their own relationships (male or female), there will also be some who may have misgivings and regrets about a breakup but where actual abuse, or at least a lack of consideration due to a power imbalance might have occurred.
The use of “rape” – in the Andrea Dworkin sense – is indeed toxic, to us all. That we should even consider this a possibility when engaging in perfectly consensual relationships makes the prospect of life-affirming sex a minefield it should never be. But we all know there are “grey areas” and that rape can happen in a relationship.
So i think that’s the dual purpose. Not just to flag up female regret, but to flag up an entire aspect of a cultural shift that needs to be aired but remains inconclusive, as it must. I don’t consider it grounds for “I told you so.”
Good comment. But please know this: rape never just “happens” in a relationship. In fact, most rapes are committed in the context of some kind of relationship (friend, husband, coworker, sibling, father, etc). Rape is a crime that one person (statistically, almost always male) chooses to commit against another person. You could have written “Murder can happen in a relationship”, too (In the USA, three women are murdered by a current or former male romantic partner every single day). But murder doesn’t just “happen” any more than rape just “happens”. That is not a grey area.
First, there are no ‘partial murders’. It’s one or the other. There is however a continuous spectrum of unwanted sexual activity that starts just beyond the ‘full and willing participation’ line and ends up with violent rape.
Second, lack of consent is intrinsic to murder. Nobody consents to being murdered, or partially murdered. It’s more complicated with sex.
One of the problems with #metoo was that it took the binary aspects of murder and applied them to sexual activity. That’s a poor fit. In doing so, it has caused an awful lot of collateral damage. Lionel Shriver’s letter illustrates this beautifully.
I agree. I think that, within a relationship, there can be situations that are ambiguous. I remember a time when I was completely physically unresponsive, and cranky, not wanting to be bothered, but I went along with sex. Later, I wondered why, and whether I should have said “Stop,” but I never would have called that rape.
Thank you for saying this, well put. I could only make it a third way through this short story which is overly didactic with a axe to grind, denouncing metoo has long been a hobby horse of Lionel Shivers, I can listen to dissenting opinions but Shriver is always ironically without nuance in condemning metoo.
No one talks up metoo as a “movement with far reaching consequences” like its critics, in reality it was more like a moment, representively short in time like in the social media medium it lived in.
It was also greatly cathartic for many women & brought down some men who needed to have their reputations destroyed.
Last edited 11 months ago by woman female
Aaron Argive
1 year ago
Lovely article Lionel. It’s critical that women’s perspectives on #MeToo are heard in the way you have shared.
Reminded me of that 3AM phone call from my ex-in-progress wife telling me how she had destroyed her life and so badly wanted to remain married. She too (maybe #SheToo ?) fell into the inky blackness of victimhood thinking so popular today. It cost her the best period of her life academically, career, and socially, as well as the strongest most loving partner she had ever known.
Meanwhile I tried to love, nurture, console, and empower her through her life changes while she continually amped up her claims of oppression and even abuse. She had started selecting older unmarried friends that encouraged her “feelings”, her devolving into complete emotional immaturity and self-centeredness. Essentially society and friends promoting borderline personality disorder behaviors so she could “be heard” and “be understood” all of which was clearly defects in my emotional well-being and major character flaws for “not getting”.
And the last time she called me she wanted to “come see me” to which I told her to never contact me again and that if she did I would call the police to have her charged with harassment.
So what about me now? First I spent a few years figuring out WTH happened, what my contribution was, and what I wanted in life.
Sadly, I came to the conclusion that I had a very low probability of finding a partner raised in a “progressive western culture” that could be a decent partner for my life..
So now, I’m happily married to a wonderful woman raised in an “old culture”. She’s gracious and charming inside, blisteringly intelligent, highly successful in her career, hardworking, beautiful and poised. She works to have me feel honored as a husband, man and partner. So not only do I “work for her”, she “works for me” as well. Novel thought that’s seemingly lost in western society today.
Good luck ladies and gentlemen!
Last edited 1 year ago by Aaron Argive
Penny Adrian
1 year ago
Seriously??? A grown ass woman blames a hashtag on her asinine behavior???
She doesn’t sound fit to be in ANY relationship.
I was also an enthusiastic supporter of #MeToo, but all it did was make me MORE appreciative my kind,loving, supportive husband.
If this were a true story, my hope would be that her boyfriend realized he dodged a bullet by seeing that nutjob’s true colors.
No adult has any business blaming a hashtag for their own infantile behavior.
#MeToo was never meant for people like that fool.
Steve Jolly
1 year ago
Seriously sad article. No telling how many relationships ended similarly to this presumably fictitious one. We live in depressing times, when the forces that divide us are many and those that unite us are few, and it’s largely our own fault. I remember chuckling at old fogies who said that rejecting traditional religion and values in favor of ideals like “equality”, “justice”, and “progress” would undermine our civilization, even while being right of center politically. Nobody’s laughing now. True those traditions and values were not perfect. They were unfair to some (like women) and stifling to many, but they kept our civilization together. Will we be able to say the same for our bright new ideals? Early indicators are not positive.
Last edited 1 year ago by Steve Jolly
chris sullivan
1 year ago
Bang on Lionel – you will have much material from all this foolishness – the trick will be (as you of course well know ) which angle will create the best wise shift for people navigating new realities. I read how many women are saying “actually I really dont like sex that much , and actually prefer the company of my girlfriends”. I encouraged my wife to ‘come clean’ about the sex thing – and now our relationship is actually much more relaxed. We still have encounters in the shower – but I have such a good imagination that she does not have to be there ! And it is nice not to have to spend time thinking about my naked mother in law to put off etc etc ( I like my mother in law but….). Blokes used to take a lot for granted – might be time to grow up a little… Incels blah blah. Gals actually like to be around blokes quite a bit but their standards have risen muchly and said blokes cant rely on cultural ‘norms’ anymore for their gigi gigi success. As a side note I remember a female friend confiding in me that she now thought the 60’s free sex thing was a complete con by the blokes and that many women feel rather badly about how they were ‘put upon’ during that era (maybe a book in that…). Many thanks for another of your ever -wise and thoughtful stories !
R Wright
1 year ago
Lie in the bed of your own making.
Andre Lower
1 year ago
Ah, and now the “#MeToo” nameplate gets quickly replaced by “#Oh no, I was never one of those”… The #MeToo accountability creepshow is one of those many instances in which the most hideous offenders will have the nerve to “excuse themselves” and hide on the anonymity of the Internet, blame all the damage on “miscommunication”, etc. I am yet to read a woman admitting that perhaps it was not reasonable to propose what #MeToo proposed. Well, now this ship has sailed. No wonder the author had to rely on a fictitious story to portray a reckoning that we all know will not materialize. After all, “it was always someone else” that labeled all men as potential rapists, right? As posted above by another commenter, now lay on the bed that you’ve made.
Konstantinos Stavropoulos
1 year ago
You are a brave beautiful lady Ms. Lionel Shriver..! Honesty and positive regret are gifts we all need to embrace I wish you a happy meaningful life and I am sure you will be having one..!
polidori redux
1 year ago
My criticism is that this chick wouldn’t have lasted two years before I gave her the bumsrush. I guess I’m wondering whether you over-egged this a bit. Intentionally perhaps?
As suggested earlier, i think she’s trying to highlight the sense of confusion that some females may have felt, to create an ambivalence that exists somewhere in the gap between love and abuse.
I apologise for appearing insenstive, but I wasn’t raised in a world in which self-absorbed, almost sef-pitying, responses to the vagaries of life had such traction. The women in my life have shown a tad more resilience. The ambivalence between love and abuse in relationships is commonplace and has always existed – We can easily resent our dependence on others. This was not discovered my MeTo. Just because Lionel Shriver is eloquent, doesn’t mean that I have to follow her everywhere she goes.
If she can’t tell the difference between love and abuse she needs to avoid relationships with men until that difference is clear.
In the USA, three to four women are murdered by a current or former male romantic partner every single day.
It is potentially deadly for a woman not to know the difference between love and abuse. There is a HUGE gap between love and abuse, and men who don’t know that are potentially very dangerous.
That would be 1400 to 1500 a year… in a country of 330,000,000. Women who dated men say.. 80,000,000? So 1450/80,000,000? I bet that number is even a bit inflated too. Most statistics like this are.
I think you have hit the nail right on the head – though perhaps not intentionally. The woman in this story did exactly what you recommend. By getting wrapped up in the hysteria of our times (just as you throw out meaningless statistics meant to suggest that women are being slaughtered by their boyfriends around every street corner) she lost the love in her life. Better to live alone then take a one in a million risk? Better park the car too.
Just who do you think you’re preaching to? Nothing i’ve posted warrants anything you’ve written in reply, either in this comment or the one earlier. Please stop making assumptions about people, i’m fully aware of the extent of the issues you raise and i’d appreciate it if you took more care when responding.
Albireo Double
1 year ago
Dear Y
Thanks for your thoughtful note and please be assured that I don’t hold anything against you.
Like your guitar player and many other men, I Too, have come to appreciate the delicious and uncomplicated simplicity of a good w**k. No restaurant bill, no moods, no threats and no risk of rejection. So yes, Me Too. Thanks to you.
I will hold you in my thoughts always – except when I am holding someone else in them. There’s another bonus of masturbation you see – unfettered choice of partner.
All the very best…
T
Last edited 1 year ago by Albireo Double
Dan Croitoru
1 year ago
Who said about erotic love that is “giving something you don’t have to someone who doesn’t need it”?
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago
Lionel seems to have a kind understanding and sympathy for men.
Jonathan Andrews
1 year ago
Lionel seems to have a kind understanding and sympathy for men.
Jean Marrale
1 year ago
I am struggling with punctuation, and so I very much appreciate your “Semantic Drift” article.
Why isn’t there a comma after ‘recycling’ in the sentence “Please, don’t shove this in recycling and do hear me out.” ?
Thank you.
Last edited 1 year ago by Jean Marrale
Jean Marrale
1 year ago
I am struggling with punctuation, and so I very much appreciate your “Semantic Drift” article.
Why isn’t there a comma after ‘recycling’ in the sentence “Please, don’t shove this in recycling and do hear me out.” ?
Thank you.
Last edited 1 year ago by Jean Marrale
Arild Brock
1 year ago
THE GENERALISED “SHE”
I suggest we men take this letter as coming from the generalised woman. There is a desperate need for contact between the two sexes. Thanks for making this initiative.
Should I, as a man, answer for men, I will suggest the following:
Dear Y,
Thanks for writing to me. I did read the whole thing. I did that because you chose a good spokeswoman.
I shall need time to relate fully to what you say. But I am sure you made a good move. I am sure we can do better than we do today.
Your letter is mostly about sex and trust – two important aspects of the particular relation we have as a man and a woman. However, I believe we shall have to address even more than that. Another important aspect would be your and my relation to a third party: to society or the state.
You have humiliated yourself, and I appreciate that. I do not want to exploit your regretful confession. But for several decades now, you have lent on the mentioned third party and exploited your relation to him – to my disfavour. Your Me-Too obsession is (only) one aspect of that. You must understand that you shall have to lean less on this third party before we can unite again.
But I am also willing to do something. In your letter, you do not ask much of me. Don’t be shy, I still love you.
At the same time, I fully understand that you cannot turn all your wishes into explicit “requests”. You write about my understanding when you are in the right mood. I suggest we agree on the following: I shall pay attention to your mood, but you being in the right mood does not always have to be a precondition. Also, the mood of one person can change the mood of the other. None of us should “emancipate” from this connection.
I believe that you still love me in a way. Let us try to find a new way together. I know you can love – like no other.
Best regards, X
Charles de Freitas
1 year ago
Bravo Ms.Shriver!
Andrew Boughton
1 year ago
Brilliant. So this is the journal where genius is allowed to range free. And wow, look at the results. Very different than Lionel’s infinitely more constrained appearances in The Spectator. Just … wow. Really.
Gordon Arta
1 year ago
MeToo seems to have overlooked one small problem: Quran v4;34. ‘Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them, in beds apart and beat them. If they obey you, take no further action against them.’
So Gordon, your point is what exactly? If your woman doesn’t instantly obey you then just beat her up? That will, presumably, learn her? That your woman live behind an all embracing cover while you stride free? Of course if she is good and meek and compliant you won’t beat her. She will just live in fear in case one day you decide she isn’t quite good and meek and compliant enough, then you can smash her face in with God’s blessing. Just clarify that for me please.
I think it’s more of a comment about the absurdity of a particular ancient Eastern religion, which thankfully, as been beaten back over millennia by the West.
Hi Warren, thanks for replying. That’s not how the comment comes over, to me anyway. I feel it’s quoted here as a justification for the oppression of women. Keep them covered up, be nice to them if they comply with manmade rules and beat them up if they don’t. Just my interpretation of course, but I thank Heaven I have the right to put it across. Freedome of thought, dress and manner must be guarded and never taken for granted.
The story gets one thing right… being accused of rape would end any relationship.
Any women who throws that word around, casually or even in conversation about others, would put herself totally off limits
Gentlemen, Heed this warning. If she uses the rape or abuse terms, throw her back into the world to grow up. You’re not the one for her to grow up with.
Agree. No matter how I felt about her I would walk away fast and never ever reach out to her again.
That the thought would even come into her head would frighten the crap out of me.
Lionel, thanks for that piece of writing. It probably took a lot more time and effort than most other articles here that tell me pretty much what I already know. Interesting, too, how a piece of fiction can contribute more than non-fiction. Thanks again.
If it was fiction, as opposed to thinly-disguised biography/autobiography, as is quite common.
Dear Y,
I used to think that MeToo was just another bandwagon for people to jump on. Based on some truth and enabling others to chime in.
I realised after our own break up that for some people MeToo was a cult. It has many of the markers of a cult. The special use of language, the comradeship, the careless distancing from family and loved ones, the immunity to alternative explanations for events. Thank goodness there wasn’t a messiah as well.
I am glad that you appear to have de-programmed yourself, but I do not wish to associate with someone who can get carried away so easily by fashionable rhetoric. Please do not try contacting me again.
Exactly! What kind of infant blames a social media hashtag for her bad behavior in a relationship?
I think #MeToo did a lot of good (and some harm) but it never changed my positive feelings for the men in my life – especially my husband, who is my hero & champion.
Any man who “loses” a woman because of a hashtag is well rid of her (or maybe there were a lot of truly creepy men who got dumped).
Y is not fit to be in any relationship.
So far, no one has mentioned #MeToo in connection with its sudden undermining of the legal system, which had taken centuries to build. This is what happens in every moral panic. This one was hardly the first in recent times. (Remember the destruction that came in the wake of “Recovered Memory Syndrome”?) Victims of serious sexual harassment should seek redress, sure, but not as vigilantes. Their power is synonymous with bypassing the courts of law (which rely for legal and moral legitimacy on due process) and replacing them with the court of public opinion (which relies ultimately not on evidence but on ideological manipulation and emotional hysteria). Like every other institution, the court of law is imperfect, but I’m not convinced that vigilantism will ever, could ever, lead us to utopia.
If we “believe women” (or men or any other group) per se, before even examining the evidence, why have trials at all? Why not simply let howling mobs convince us that justice and revenge are synonymous? Trials, as defined in all Western societies (and many others) require the systematic and objective analysis of evidence, not beliefs–that is, quasi-theological doctrines Whatever #MeToo has done for women (a debatable point, as Shriver points out), the cost to society as a whole has been too high.
I wish I could give this one a dozen up-votes.
I’m astounded that so many comments here seem oblivious about the delicious irony, the perspicacious insight, and the nudge-nudge nuance that Shriver brings to bear on almost anything she writes.
Absolutely – a brilliant and subtle piece of writing which most commentators strangely seem to take literally
It’s a beautifully written well crafted piece!
It takes an inventive mind to think of this approach and an excellent writer to turn it into words.
Responding can be cathartic, I quite enjoyed the tale. I did try to place myself in the scene but couldn’t. I’m lucky to have aged out of the #MeToo situation. My youthful encounters are now pleasant memories along with suitable regrets.
Absolutely. Love her writing for its subtlety.
So glad I’m not young and dating. Online dating + hook-up culture + MeToo identity politics = disaster.
I don’t know that anything has changed to be honest. Becomng an adult means learning boundaries, enforcing boundaries, learning how to have and grow healthy relationships with other adults, not focusing on the superficial. Some people in their 40s are no better at this than the typical 20 year old who at least has the excuse of having limited relationship experience. If you have never ended a relationship of any kind for instance… that should be a sign you are doing something wrong. Same is true if you’ve never developed any close long lasting relationships. Discernment and patience is key.
Thank you Lionel. Thank you for creating a character who generates no sympathy whatsoever.
Dear Y,
It’s not “me, too”
It’s 100% you, and the next dumb cause you embrace, that will drive the next one away, that drove this one away. There are ways to fix dumb, but sometimes dumb is a signal that it’s time to get out, run, and to never look back.
I think you’re mistaken. Very few human interactions are 100% anything: if we carry the binary approach adopted by single-issue groups and encouraged by social media into the way we view and treat others, we lose two of humanity’s most valuable qualities: nuance and grace.
Nuance, because humans aren’t robots. We’re all a mass of contradictions. None of us are that distant tree, just a shape of a single colour. Get closer and everyone’s a variegated jumble of dark and light. We can’t even be honest with ourselves about what bits of our characters, both dark and light, combine to form even the simplest decisions we make. To view a person or an attitude or a political movement as wholly good or wholly bad is naive and destructive. That’s why single-issue causes are so pernicious.
And grace. Grace to see both good and bad in people and to forgive the bad for the sake of the good. All the simplistic, childish activism that plagues Western society lacks nuance and, because of that, it lacks grace. ‘Four legs good, two legs bad’ is a catchy political slogan, but it’s a deadening way to live and utterly toxic when applied to individuals. That’s why Critical Race Theory, Intersectional Theory – indeed, all theories that cast one individual or way of looking at the world as uniquely good or uniquely bad – are so harmful to us humans.
I agree with you about the toxic effects of academic theories: Intersectional, CRT, and especially Queer Theory. They are dehumanizing and they undermine all social relationships.
“dehumanizing and they undermine all social relationships”
Excellent point
Agreed but please say “us, people” not “us, humans” -)
Never put your d*ck in crazy. – Socrates
Can’t be said often enough. Dad’s don’t stress this enough to their teenage sons.
Hear, hear. Wish mine had.
There’s a lot to be said for crazy, when you’re young and learning. They’re great fun! Just don’t get deeply involved.
“the pressure I’d often felt to go ahead and shag men I didn’t especially like because it was easier to say yes and get it over with than to hold my ground”
It would of course never occur that this cuts both ways
Oh come on, there’s a certain physiological response that’s necessary for the man in this scenario…….
You have a lot to learn
Man, you have NO idea.
Thats like saying that a woman who gets wet while being raped actually wanted it.
You would be astounded how many older men look back and realize they slept with a woman only because they were either expected to want to or because they were never taught THEY can say no too.
I’m sure that’s true.
Imaging the reaction if the man said no
True, in the end we are only clever animals and a p***y is a p***y.
I don’t think women are actually aware of how fully they have internalized the endless feminist rhetoric that they are victims and most things are the fault of men. Upper middle class white women do seem to genuinely believe they are the world’s great victims. I have thought about the advice I will give to my daughters when they leave the nest. Some of it will be cautionary advice about dealing with men – who are indeed sometimes dangerous. However I will also let them know that if they lay on the feminist rhetoric too much they may lose a potential or existing husband. It is tiring to hear it in your own home and many men – I suspect – will choose not to partner with someone who plays the feminist card too often.
This is the real point: the very great reward lately given to claiming to being the victim. That benefit also comes at the very great cost of internalised denial of agency. This was also perfectly illustrated in this story by “lying back” instead of acting in self interest.
Walker Walker Walker & Walker
Dear Ms. Y:
We are a personal-injury law firm representing your acquaintance and former sexmate Taylor [_______]. With the present letter, we put you on notice that any further attempt by you or any person or entity acting on your behalf to contact him will be regarded by him as harassment. This applies to any in-person approach or to any written or other communication, whether by traditional, electronic, or other means. Note that under existing statutes in both your state of residence and his, subterfuge, such as the false return address you used in writing to him on October 3, constitutes an “outrageous” aggravation, which enables claims for punitive damages.
Sincerely,
T Walker, Name partner
Would it be too cynical of me to even consider the possibility that this was written, and well-written at that, with a dual purpose? After all, literature is sometimes at its best with ambiguity lurking in the shadows.
For all those who see echoes of their own relationships (male or female), there will also be some who may have misgivings and regrets about a breakup but where actual abuse, or at least a lack of consideration due to a power imbalance might have occurred.
The use of “rape” – in the Andrea Dworkin sense – is indeed toxic, to us all. That we should even consider this a possibility when engaging in perfectly consensual relationships makes the prospect of life-affirming sex a minefield it should never be. But we all know there are “grey areas” and that rape can happen in a relationship.
So i think that’s the dual purpose. Not just to flag up female regret, but to flag up an entire aspect of a cultural shift that needs to be aired but remains inconclusive, as it must. I don’t consider it grounds for “I told you so.”
Good comment. But please know this: rape never just “happens” in a relationship. In fact, most rapes are committed in the context of some kind of relationship (friend, husband, coworker, sibling, father, etc). Rape is a crime that one person (statistically, almost always male) chooses to commit against another person. You could have written “Murder can happen in a relationship”, too (In the USA, three women are murdered by a current or former male romantic partner every single day). But murder doesn’t just “happen” any more than rape just “happens”. That is not a grey area.
Perhaps you’re missing some nuance here.
First, there are no ‘partial murders’. It’s one or the other. There is however a continuous spectrum of unwanted sexual activity that starts just beyond the ‘full and willing participation’ line and ends up with violent rape.
Second, lack of consent is intrinsic to murder. Nobody consents to being murdered, or partially murdered. It’s more complicated with sex.
One of the problems with #metoo was that it took the binary aspects of murder and applied them to sexual activity. That’s a poor fit. In doing so, it has caused an awful lot of collateral damage. Lionel Shriver’s letter illustrates this beautifully.
I agree. I think that, within a relationship, there can be situations that are ambiguous. I remember a time when I was completely physically unresponsive, and cranky, not wanting to be bothered, but I went along with sex. Later, I wondered why, and whether I should have said “Stop,” but I never would have called that rape.
Thank you for saying this, well put. I could only make it a third way through this short story which is overly didactic with a axe to grind, denouncing metoo has long been a hobby horse of Lionel Shivers, I can listen to dissenting opinions but Shriver is always ironically without nuance in condemning metoo.
No one talks up metoo as a “movement with far reaching consequences” like its critics, in reality it was more like a moment, representively short in time like in the social media medium it lived in.
It was also greatly cathartic for many women & brought down some men who needed to have their reputations destroyed.
Lovely article Lionel. It’s critical that women’s perspectives on #MeToo are heard in the way you have shared.
Reminded me of that 3AM phone call from my ex-in-progress wife telling me how she had destroyed her life and so badly wanted to remain married. She too (maybe #SheToo ?) fell into the inky blackness of victimhood thinking so popular today. It cost her the best period of her life academically, career, and socially, as well as the strongest most loving partner she had ever known.
Meanwhile I tried to love, nurture, console, and empower her through her life changes while she continually amped up her claims of oppression and even abuse. She had started selecting older unmarried friends that encouraged her “feelings”, her devolving into complete emotional immaturity and self-centeredness. Essentially society and friends promoting borderline personality disorder behaviors so she could “be heard” and “be understood” all of which was clearly defects in my emotional well-being and major character flaws for “not getting”.
And the last time she called me she wanted to “come see me” to which I told her to never contact me again and that if she did I would call the police to have her charged with harassment.
So what about me now? First I spent a few years figuring out WTH happened, what my contribution was, and what I wanted in life.
Sadly, I came to the conclusion that I had a very low probability of finding a partner raised in a “progressive western culture” that could be a decent partner for my life..
So now, I’m happily married to a wonderful woman raised in an “old culture”. She’s gracious and charming inside, blisteringly intelligent, highly successful in her career, hardworking, beautiful and poised. She works to have me feel honored as a husband, man and partner. So not only do I “work for her”, she “works for me” as well. Novel thought that’s seemingly lost in western society today.
Good luck ladies and gentlemen!
Seriously??? A grown ass woman blames a hashtag on her asinine behavior???
She doesn’t sound fit to be in ANY relationship.
I was also an enthusiastic supporter of #MeToo, but all it did was make me MORE appreciative my kind,loving, supportive husband.
If this were a true story, my hope would be that her boyfriend realized he dodged a bullet by seeing that nutjob’s true colors.
No adult has any business blaming a hashtag for their own infantile behavior.
#MeToo was never meant for people like that fool.
Seriously sad article. No telling how many relationships ended similarly to this presumably fictitious one. We live in depressing times, when the forces that divide us are many and those that unite us are few, and it’s largely our own fault. I remember chuckling at old fogies who said that rejecting traditional religion and values in favor of ideals like “equality”, “justice”, and “progress” would undermine our civilization, even while being right of center politically. Nobody’s laughing now. True those traditions and values were not perfect. They were unfair to some (like women) and stifling to many, but they kept our civilization together. Will we be able to say the same for our bright new ideals? Early indicators are not positive.
Bang on Lionel – you will have much material from all this foolishness – the trick will be (as you of course well know ) which angle will create the best wise shift for people navigating new realities. I read how many women are saying “actually I really dont like sex that much , and actually prefer the company of my girlfriends”. I encouraged my wife to ‘come clean’ about the sex thing – and now our relationship is actually much more relaxed. We still have encounters in the shower – but I have such a good imagination that she does not have to be there ! And it is nice not to have to spend time thinking about my naked mother in law to put off etc etc ( I like my mother in law but….). Blokes used to take a lot for granted – might be time to grow up a little… Incels blah blah. Gals actually like to be around blokes quite a bit but their standards have risen muchly and said blokes cant rely on cultural ‘norms’ anymore for their gigi gigi success. As a side note I remember a female friend confiding in me that she now thought the 60’s free sex thing was a complete con by the blokes and that many women feel rather badly about how they were ‘put upon’ during that era (maybe a book in that…). Many thanks for another of your ever -wise and thoughtful stories !
Lie in the bed of your own making.
Ah, and now the “#MeToo” nameplate gets quickly replaced by “#Oh no, I was never one of those”… The #MeToo accountability creepshow is one of those many instances in which the most hideous offenders will have the nerve to “excuse themselves” and hide on the anonymity of the Internet, blame all the damage on “miscommunication”, etc. I am yet to read a woman admitting that perhaps it was not reasonable to propose what #MeToo proposed. Well, now this ship has sailed. No wonder the author had to rely on a fictitious story to portray a reckoning that we all know will not materialize. After all, “it was always someone else” that labeled all men as potential rapists, right? As posted above by another commenter, now lay on the bed that you’ve made.
You are a brave beautiful lady Ms. Lionel Shriver..! Honesty and positive regret are gifts we all need to embrace I wish you a happy meaningful life and I am sure you will be having one..!
My criticism is that this chick wouldn’t have lasted two years before I gave her the bumsrush. I guess I’m wondering whether you over-egged this a bit. Intentionally perhaps?
As suggested earlier, i think she’s trying to highlight the sense of confusion that some females may have felt, to create an ambivalence that exists somewhere in the gap between love and abuse.
I apologise for appearing insenstive, but I wasn’t raised in a world in which self-absorbed, almost sef-pitying, responses to the vagaries of life had such traction. The women in my life have shown a tad more resilience. The ambivalence between love and abuse in relationships is commonplace and has always existed – We can easily resent our dependence on others. This was not discovered my MeTo. Just because Lionel Shriver is eloquent, doesn’t mean that I have to follow her everywhere she goes.
If she can’t tell the difference between love and abuse she needs to avoid relationships with men until that difference is clear.
In the USA, three to four women are murdered by a current or former male romantic partner every single day.
It is potentially deadly for a woman not to know the difference between love and abuse. There is a HUGE gap between love and abuse, and men who don’t know that are potentially very dangerous.
That would be 1400 to 1500 a year… in a country of 330,000,000. Women who dated men say.. 80,000,000? So 1450/80,000,000? I bet that number is even a bit inflated too. Most statistics like this are.
I think you have hit the nail right on the head – though perhaps not intentionally. The woman in this story did exactly what you recommend. By getting wrapped up in the hysteria of our times (just as you throw out meaningless statistics meant to suggest that women are being slaughtered by their boyfriends around every street corner) she lost the love in her life. Better to live alone then take a one in a million risk? Better park the car too.
Just who do you think you’re preaching to? Nothing i’ve posted warrants anything you’ve written in reply, either in this comment or the one earlier. Please stop making assumptions about people, i’m fully aware of the extent of the issues you raise and i’d appreciate it if you took more care when responding.
Dear Y
Thanks for your thoughtful note and please be assured that I don’t hold anything against you.
Like your guitar player and many other men, I Too, have come to appreciate the delicious and uncomplicated simplicity of a good w**k. No restaurant bill, no moods, no threats and no risk of rejection. So yes, Me Too. Thanks to you.
I will hold you in my thoughts always – except when I am holding someone else in them. There’s another bonus of masturbation you see – unfettered choice of partner.
All the very best…
T
Who said about erotic love that is “giving something you don’t have to someone who doesn’t need it”?
Lionel seems to have a kind understanding and sympathy for men.
Lionel seems to have a kind understanding and sympathy for men.
I am struggling with punctuation, and so I very much appreciate your “Semantic Drift” article.
Why isn’t there a comma after ‘recycling’ in the sentence “Please, don’t shove this in recycling and do hear me out.” ?
Thank you.
I am struggling with punctuation, and so I very much appreciate your “Semantic Drift” article.
Why isn’t there a comma after ‘recycling’ in the sentence “Please, don’t shove this in recycling and do hear me out.” ?
Thank you.
THE GENERALISED “SHE”
I suggest we men take this letter as coming from the generalised woman. There is a desperate need for contact between the two sexes. Thanks for making this initiative.
Should I, as a man, answer for men, I will suggest the following:
Dear Y,
Thanks for writing to me. I did read the whole thing. I did that because you chose a good spokeswoman.
I shall need time to relate fully to what you say. But I am sure you made a good move. I am sure we can do better than we do today.
Your letter is mostly about sex and trust – two important aspects of the particular relation we have as a man and a woman. However, I believe we shall have to address even more than that. Another important aspect would be your and my relation to a third party: to society or the state.
You have humiliated yourself, and I appreciate that. I do not want to exploit your regretful confession. But for several decades now, you have lent on the mentioned third party and exploited your relation to him – to my disfavour. Your Me-Too obsession is (only) one aspect of that. You must understand that you shall have to lean less on this third party before we can unite again.
But I am also willing to do something. In your letter, you do not ask much of me. Don’t be shy, I still love you.
At the same time, I fully understand that you cannot turn all your wishes into explicit “requests”. You write about my understanding when you are in the right mood. I suggest we agree on the following: I shall pay attention to your mood, but you being in the right mood does not always have to be a precondition. Also, the mood of one person can change the mood of the other. None of us should “emancipate” from this connection.
I believe that you still love me in a way. Let us try to find a new way together. I know you can love – like no other.
Best regards, X
Bravo Ms.Shriver!
Brilliant. So this is the journal where genius is allowed to range free. And wow, look at the results. Very different than Lionel’s infinitely more constrained appearances in The Spectator. Just … wow. Really.
MeToo seems to have overlooked one small problem: Quran v4;34. ‘Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them, in beds apart and beat them. If they obey you, take no further action against them.’
So Gordon, your point is what exactly? If your woman doesn’t instantly obey you then just beat her up? That will, presumably, learn her? That your woman live behind an all embracing cover while you stride free? Of course if she is good and meek and compliant you won’t beat her. She will just live in fear in case one day you decide she isn’t quite good and meek and compliant enough, then you can smash her face in with God’s blessing. Just clarify that for me please.
I think it’s more of a comment about the absurdity of a particular ancient Eastern religion, which thankfully, as been beaten back over millennia by the West.
Hi Warren, thanks for replying. That’s not how the comment comes over, to me anyway. I feel it’s quoted here as a justification for the oppression of women. Keep them covered up, be nice to them if they comply with manmade rules and beat them up if they don’t. Just my interpretation of course, but I thank Heaven I have the right to put it across. Freedome of thought, dress and manner must be guarded and never taken for granted.