France appears to be in a similar if not worse position than we are. However the French public clearly care more about preserving their nation and are aware of the problems that immigrants cause and are less cowardly than the British in speaking for a desire to preserve their nation. This reflects their politics, socially liberal Macron makes statements that even the furthest right of the Conservative party would be too scared to state. Repatriation is not a drastic option it is the only mutually beneficial solution that will avoid destruction of two of the most important nations in world history.
‘Repatriation’? Please explain to where you repatriate a French citizen, born in France who holds no other nationality.
Algeria, where his parents came from despite their own parents fighting against foreign rule.
In this instance Algeria would have to agree to give them citizenship, which is possible, I suppose, but not likely – why would they?
I would suggest it would be more practical to properly enforce laws so that there are no two-state systems at play. There should not be sharia law in one area and French law in another.
But fixing this means a huge show of state force and a huge rise in prison populations, which I think is a price worth paying to establish the rule of law and public safety.
But the evidence from the US, which imprisons more of its own citizens than more or less any other country, shows that there is no correlation between a high prison population and lower levels of violent crime….this evidence even suggests the opposite to be true.
Prisons do tend to become grad schools for crime.
Perhaps not. But we have ample evidence that NOT incarcerating violent people causes increases in violent crime. In recent years, we have seen a series of District Attorneys in many cities (often referred to Soros prosecutors) adopt bail reform rules that essentially put many criminals, both recently arrested and some already in prison back out on the street and there has definitely been a rise in violent crime in many of those cities. I’m not making a case for mass incarceration. But, there are just really bad people (usually young men) that do violent acts and there is ample evidence that they commit more violent crime. New York, Chicago, Baton Rouge, Philadelphia, etc. It seems rare to see a murder committed these days by someone who was NOT recently released from prison or who has a long rap sheet for previous violent crimes.
I’m not sure I necessarily believe this. What is correlation and what is causation? It could easily be the case that large numbers of prisons reflect the high level of crime, rather than cause it.
What we don’t know and cannot easily tell is what the crime in those areas would be without arresting people for crime.
Well this is something of a moot point because it is clear that in either case, just tossing people into prison doesn’t stop other people from committing violent crime (thus raising questions about imprisonment as a deterrent). Violent criminals may well deserve their comeuppance, but arguing for more prison sentences as a way of cutting violent crime makes no sense…it constitutes a reaction to the problem rather than a solution.
Unless you know what the level of violent crime *would* be, without incarceration, there’s not really a way to avoid the obvious conclusion that violent crime is the cause of incarceration, not the other way ’round.
It could well be that lowering incarceration rates would lead to a rise in crime.
Uh there is a correlation; they’ve let a lot of them out, Soros backed prosecutors don’t actually do their jobs and our city streets are exploding with crime. We are a 300 million country so it’s logical that we are going to have a lot of people in prison. Prison reform was a fail.
France and perhaps Italy and Spain may need to occupy parts of North Africa to deport them back to, if Algeria, Morocco and Libya will not take them people back.
Unthinkable? Yes, but a year ago a massive land war in Europe was unthinkable. If the situation is as bad as the author implies, France has no hope of maintaining domestic tranquility and its own national identify without such drastic action.
You cannot ‘deport’ someone to a country of which they are not a national, irrespective of where their father, mother, hamster etc was born. Former French president François Hollande tried to push through a policy of déchéance de nationalité for those thought to be involved in terrorism and was widely ridiculed when it proved to be unworkable for this reason.
Sounds like they don’t think of themselves as citizens so no reason for them to stay.
“You cannot ‘deport’ someone to a country of which they are not a national”
You can by forcing the country in question to take them back. France could occupy a part of the North African littoral with ease, and deport the element of its population that rejects French citizenship. Then return the occupied territory to the Algerian or Tunisian government at a later date, with their population returned.
DNA test to establish country of origin
This is a matter of mindset, not race. There are large numbers of law-abiding French citizens of North African origin. I agree with hayden eastwood: shari’a is incompatible with French law.
DNA cannot determine country of origin. And how far back do you want to go. Because that means we are all headed to Africa. I am a US citizen of 100% Northern European stock (determined by DNA). Should I head back to Europe? And which one of many countries in Northern Europe my ancestors came from a couple of generations ago?
I like all of my options by the way. Although it is going to be pretty cold and dark most of the winters. Bummer. Too bad no one was from Greece.
I am of Italian and Irish parentage, born here.. Does that make me ” English”? no.. Merely being born in a stable does not make one a horse!
A spurious comparison; nationality is not the same as species. If one is of Indian origin (for example) but born and raised in England, has British nationality, and has loyalties to England/Britain, then one is English.
I am English, both my parents surnames are in the dooomsday book. If I had been born in China, spoke the language, and was also a Chinese citizen I still do not think that would make me Chinese. Nor would I expect the Chinese to see me as being one of them. I would label myself as being culturally Chinese of English heritage.
This is not meant to be an universal principle. France is facing a continuing domestic emergency. Mass deportation to resolve a specific emergency is what is being proposed here.
And then send 13% of the person back to Sweden, 58% to Germany . . .
This is what happens when citizenship replaces nationality. In other words, the law and the paperwork count for more than ancestry, language , history, tradition, ritual, religion and so on. Zemmour did not ‘capitalise’ on the existing situation; rather he pointed it out in all its dangerous detail and predicted where France is headed. Stuck with it now.
Many, if not most of the troublemakers, are far more likely to have arrived in France within the last 10 Years.
links and stats please i would be interested in reading that.
Wrong. This may be the case with some of the perpetrators of the more high profile terrorist attacks of recent years, but it is not true of the majority of hoodlums causing misery in the banlieues. This latter group is what the article is about.
Assimilate or b****r off and take your offspring with you. Simple.
Perhaps (as Americans used to say during the McCarthy era): “back to Russia?”
In South West USA I just watched an interview with some Border Sheriffs who say the Cartels 100% manage the literally millions of illegals the Biden regime has let stream across the fully open Border.
They went on to say Mexican Cartels are fully operational in every American city, even big towns. These Sheriffs who have been working Law on the border decades must know what they are talking of; it is very scary – what is Biden up to that he has opened the border to millions, all whom have to pay the Cartels, and many are part of the Cartels.
The Hispanic voters have always been Democrat voters till this upcoming Mid Term elections when they will be voting majority Republican, as they know how life under crime lords is.
FULLY OPEN border? Care to specify at all?
Would you care to explain what it is then?
yah probably about 2 million ‘refugees’ and ‘asylum seekers’ who wish to game the system will cross this year with almost no push back from this administration; some wearing ‘biden please let us in’ t shirts. this after getting it down to a 50 year level from trumps time in office. we had it solved and biden opened the flood gates.
“to the horrifyingly drastic — creating a ministry for “re-migration”. how much more horrifying than a teacher getting his head cut off or bombings for some perceived slight? you get what you put up with…
Vigilante beheading, or mass deportation: it’s your choice! (How one say in English: false dilemma?)
It’s a false dilemma in the sense that it doesn’t qualify as an argument either for or against such a ministry. What’s at issue are the criteria that would guide the ministry’s decision-making. I’m sure few would object to deporting an immigrant guilty of such a horrific crime. Deporting his neighbour because he too is an immigrant (not a beheader) is a different story.
Kat was comparing which events get categorized as “horrifyingly drastic”. Making those horrific alternatives the only two options came from your own mind. You need to take responsibility for creating your false dilemma.
As you sow, so shall you reap! Instead of pouring money into these hellholes, send the ones creating them back from whence they came with no right to return to what was, once, a Belle France. This would be a far better use of French funds!
Are you saying they are not French citizens? Looks to me like legally speaking they are perfectly entitled to be there.
You have to come up with something better than wishing them away.
The problem your idea faces is that no country is likely to give a criminal passport and citizenship just because a great grandparent had citizenship in that country.
Lots of downvotes to people pointing out that these jihadis don’t have citizenship to other countries- but nobody is providing credible means by which Algeria, for example, could be coerced or incentivised to give French born jihadi criminals Algerian citizenship.
Islamists are waging war all round the globe… Our media are too frightened of the ” Islamophobia” fifth column.
The article shows how (apart from the drug issues) the French can take to the streets. I live in France and am both British and French (‘forced’ to be French by Brexit as I have a company in France, and I love both countries). France has difficulties, but not as much as the UK appears to be suffering. I seriously think that the UK would benefit from having some serious (French) demonstrations at present. We have just seen how millions can be mobilised by the death of the Queen. We now have a totally incompetent quasi-unelected government with no mandate at all for what they are doing and which can cause immense long-term harm. I recommend you read the ‘Shortest History of England’ to show the roots of the constitutional crisis we are facing, and the North-South divide. So I also recommend mass demonstrations (peaceful, as occurred three weeks ago?) and then the King can dissolve parliament! Of course, if nobody wants to demonstrate, then the entire idea of constitutional change cant take place, but if nobody wants to take action, then a society deserves what it gets from a government without mandate.
Michael, in which country are you now living, Britain or France, and since when? How does your place of residence influence your choice of media, and how widely do you read around issues? I’d appreciate a little more understanding in these areas before responding further to your post. Thanks, Jeff
Jeff, I live in France (36 years), with an appartment and honorary position in UK; I am a scientist (successful, well cited) and I read extensively, I have a worldwide position in research and before COVID travelled widely. I read LeMonde, Guardian, Times, Unherd among others, and scan other papers to see what they are saying. This is my first Unherd post. over to you! all the best Michael
Michael, many thanks for your prompt reply. One final question if I may, and then a request! In which part of France are you, and rather can conduct a correspondence in full view of other esteemed Unherd readers can you suggest a more private method? Perhaps making contact via something like LinkedIn thence to exchange email addresses, or can you think of an alternative? Cheers, Jeff
Would you feel the say way if you disagreed with the proposition?
I think you are being a bit hysterical Michael.
We have a perfectly good system to remove poor governments: the ballot box. I suspect Liz Truss will be replaced by her own side or by a general election. Either way, nothing good has ever come out of protests or direct action.
Yes, I dont normally like direct action. But the ballot box is <18 months away. It is just that we are in a very difficult situation, where Truss didnt want to tax the companies which had made >100bn£ worth of profits, proposed 60bn£ of loans so our children will pay for this etc etc. and none of this was voted for (except for a small number of party members). The financial situation is ‘rather poor’ and much worse than in Europe.
(Jeff , linked In!).
Thanks, Michael! My LinkedIn profile is totally anodyne, but hopefully yours will be easy to find and I’ll message you.
“…We now have a totally incompetent quasi-unelected government with no mandate at all for what they are doing and which can cause immense long-term harm”
Oh Dear Michel, you have gone native.
Tell me who you voted for in the €SSR Presidential elections?..230-ish votes got VDL elected to a position to implement laws and policies that 450 million subjects have utterly no say in formulating.
Who went to gaol for killing 100k people because of Dieselgate?
The reality is that you cannot police people into accepting your ways; you can only seduce them, by conclusively demonstrating your ways hold the promise of a better life for them than the ways you’re asking them to abandon. Evidently, secular France has not succeeded in persuading enough of its Muslim immigrants this is the case; but if a bifurcated state is to be avoided, there really is no alternative. The only effective and lasting way to neutralize enemies is to turn them into friends. Violence and repression, even centuries’ worth, simply harden the battle lines.
I love the humane idealism you promote, and I fully support that as the optimum course when it works.
How certain are you that it’s universally feasible, tho? Do you suggest that there be a Plan B if it doesn’t work, or just Plan A forever?
Remember, you don’t just need to seduce 80%, you need to seduce close to everybody, because the bomb-throwers are usually only a minority.
And what would you consider the most applicable and replicable historical examples of the approach you advocate?
Again, I like the idea, I’m just trying to understand the scope and boundaries of it, the pragmatics.
The problem is as far as I see, French, and really Western way of living seems to be dying. People don’t set up families and raise children, therefore the native population is shrinking. Granted this is a Western only problem, but is dominant in the West. The question then is why would someone assimilate to a dying way of life? When that question can be answered, the rest isn’t hard.
It’s a good question. But why would someone emigrate to a dying way of life? I would think it’s because it has something they haven’t had, or lost. But why would someone then attack that way of life, or want to change it? Possibly because they’ve never had anything good enough to value, that their culture, and religion, never gave them anything but pain. Maybe they’re like those children from dysfunctional homes who won’t be helped and damage everything given to them in the hope of helping. It takes a lot of work to help those types, with a big failure rate. But this destruction is clearly a sign of dysfunction.
I’ve been asked this question in different forums/threads: “But why would someone emigrate to a dying way of life?”
I don’t think it’s that hard to imagine why. Firstly, it’s easy to see France has wealth. It’s also not hard to see some of this wealth goes back to activities like slave trading or colonisation of Africa. Regardless of where you stand in the political spectrum, I think anyone can understand the reasoning behind following the money. Furthermore given the above, you may see why there would be a lack of respect for the people who have the money when it’s thought the money is ill-gotten. So, I think it takes a bit of empathy to understand the mindset here, but it’s not contradictory. Your example about children probably does have merit though – in the same way abandoned or poor children don’t tend accept the legitimacy of the system that put them where they ended up.
“I don’t think it’s that hard to imagine why.”
“I think anyone can understand the reasoning behind following the money.”
If that’s the reason then it’s bound to end in disappointment, then frustration, then anger. If it was for living in a more democratic society, less war-torn, and a better future for their children then that would make sense. Which is, I imagine, the hopes of most emigrants. So lack of respect for where the money came from doesn’t add up to much, especially if that country offers you things you never had.
“People don’t set up families and raise children, therefore the native population is shrinking”
What?? I have a family and children, so does everyone I know. The schools are full and you have to beg for a place in a public creche.
Please explain what you mean by the ‘native population’.
I have enough income these days, and so do most of my friends. So, it must mean there’s no poverty in UK, good to have solved poverty.
Moving on. Native population is the group of people who aren’t immigrants – or descendants of immigrants. Usually there’s a cut off time when the descendants are more attached to the country they live in, or are accepted in it, at which point they become native. For example, Germans and Irish were seen as non-native in America for a while before they were all accepted as white. But you knew all of that didn’t you?
It’s been in the news quite a bit lately that the 1st world countries are not reproducing to replaceable rates. We are headed for a heap of trouble.
The film does make clear who the villains are and they are neither the cops nor the gang members. I won’t give it away in case anyone here plans on watching the film.
The only banlieue I know at all well is Ivry, which lies just outside the Paris Peripherique an hour’s walk from the Latin Quarter. It’s not downright dangerous like the hell holes described in the article, but it is very down at heel and prompted a sonnet:-
Sonnet Concerning a Banlieue
Ivry-sur-Seine is difficult to love.
The revolution’s curdled here; St Just
has loaned his name to the tabac. Above,
the chimneys belch their Promethean dust
into the cold hard blank November sky.
The matchstick men from Mali and Algiers
trudge past the concrete cake mix, and the pie
of unfinished apartment blocks. No tears
were shed for beauty, no Lautréamont
has milked this abscess for its clotted crème.
La France Soumise spunked dry for Mélenchon’s
bijou apartment in the 10ième:
Versailles’ most elegantly velvet fist
replaced the Marquis with a communist.