No it won’t. The loss or gain of one mid-sized city that is effectively ruined means very little. Large scale mobile warfare will determine Ukraine’s fate. They need to force the Russians into maneuver warfare, where they are weak.
Carlos Danger
1 year ago
Looks like the war has come down to fighting over the same region that the two sides have fought over for 8 years, since the first Battle of Mariupol in 2014.
Crimea looks unlikely to ever leave Russia now, so the question is what about Donetsk and Luhansk? In theory at least part of those oblasts has been independent since 2014 and after the Russian invasion became part of Russia. Will they ever go back?
Then there is the corridor between the Donbas region and Crimea which Russia has now won control of, cutting off Ukraine from access to the Sea of Azov. Can Ukraine get that back?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy puts on a brave front but is not realistic in thinking that Ukraine can win back all this territory. He has kept Ukraine independent but no matter what happens the tensions in the east will not go away.
Maybe the Minsk accords were not such a bad deal after all and Ukraine should have lived up to its agreement.
Putin wants to be Stalin. He comes from an old communist KGB background where the last successful leader of the USSR and implicitly Russia was Joseph Stalin. Stalin smashed Ukrainian nationalism by starving them to death in the government created famine of 1923/33 when about 5 million Ukrainians were deliberately starved during the imposition of the collective farm programme and the removal of all grain and food supplies to Russia. Ukraine has been a festering sore to Putin ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union and Ukrainian independence. He wants to imitate Stalin and to be seen as the strong leader taking Russia back to greatness. So he will keep going until he annexes sufficient land in Luhansk and Donetsk to call the territory part of Russia. This means legitimate attacks and attempts to recover Ukrainian territory will be seen as attack on Russia with implications for the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
You claim great insight into Putin’s inner mind and motivations, things not apparent in the public record. Are you his psychiatrist or a close confidant? Or do you just repeat what you have been told, contrary to other evidence.
cant help feeling that the present scenario also reeks of germany 1938 etc – and thats a hell of a combination – stalin PLUS hitler. If shocck and awe was the goal it is certainly working on me !
Your response assumes that Putin “lived up” to Minsk. That is pure claptrap. Putin as early as a year ago was issuing essays saying that the Raie was not a real state, plus the so called “rebels”, headed by Russian GRU units and backed bythe Russian military were continuously firing into the rest of the Ukraine. Your answer simpky ignores the fact that Putin uses :hybrid warfare” over an extended time whether in Georgia, Moldova, or as we have seen here, the Ukraine. He has an itch that can’t be scratched without the Ukraine falling to Russia’s hands.
Saul D
1 year ago
The Ukrainian defensive lines in Donetsk, dating from 2014, that had held firm for weeks while the Russians moved across the open borders to the north and south have been crossed and slowly erased in the last period. As the maps have shown the Russians have been grinding their way forwards across those lines, despite the optimistic propaganda from the Ukrainians.
What we don’t know is how this is affecting Ukrainian strength. An army under continual defensive pressure, taking losses, being pushed back, and without dug-in defensive positions can lead to a sudden and dramatic large-scale withdrawal and collapse (cf Russian around Kiev). Everything could change very quickly were this to happen.
As neither side will want to fight in winter, there may also be an implicit timescale. If the first snows come in November, by September or latest October, Russians will want to be securing their positions for winter. In addition, the US and Europeans would also be facing their most severe economic and energy costs. Would this then give the Russians a negotiable end-point?
I wonder how much support Zelensky has in Ukraine for accepting more deadly weapons to continue this war against the odds of actually winning. He is the leader of a political party and I feel there must be opposition to policies which continue destroying the country’s infrastructure and the livelihood of the people.
I am also concerned about us sending long-range missiles to Ukraine. There has been an undertaking not to fire these into Russia but accidents happen. Even accidents with ulterior motives!
Every country is suffering as a result of this war and it is time for serious negotiations to take place.. At least I think so!
Alas negotiations, diplomacy and a desire for peace don’t appear to be a thing these days. People seem to prefer keeping this proxy war going at all costs, even if it is causing loss of life, hardship on our own people, depletion of our own armaments, spending of money that was desperately needed within our own economy (health service, etc).
You’d think we would learn from our conflicts in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, but every time the politicians and media manage to justify the lies and propaganda and arms dealers and contractors make billions. War is a hugely profitable business for some people.
I know I will get lots of down votes for this comment as most people seem to be willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, and even risk nuclear Armageddon rather than use diplomacy.
I am happy to take the flack as one day people will look back and realise that this is just another Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.
Give peace a chance I say.
Friedrich Tellberg
1 year ago
If Russia’s strategy is to disrupt global supply chains, create artificial famines and crank up energy prices, it needs yet to find someone else to put the blame on. Otherwise it is going to backfire on them. The non Western world did not join the West in sanctioning, but so far it didn’t give any support to Russia either. Fat chance such a strategy of world wide impoverishment will convince many countries to take Russia’s side.
Ian Stewart
1 year ago
Not much here about Russia slowly bleeding to death in this war of attrition. This is far far worse than their losses in Afghanistan. Meanwhile they still think they can front up to NATO with conventional weapons?
At the end of the day Ukraine doesn’t really matter to the world, if Russia has been fatally undermined. Sad but true.
And it means China won’t have a decent ally to go up against the unified west. It really couldn’t have worked out any better for the west, as some (nudge, nudge) confidently predicted over a year ago as writers and commentators praised the genius of Putin and Xi Ping.
martin logan
1 year ago
It is a war of attrition–but attrition of the Russian economy.
Regardless of the outcome for Ukraine, we need to keep up the economic pressure on Russia. Make the ban on western parts permanent. Wean the West off of fossil fuels. Keep Russia out of SWIFT.
The blockade eventually forced Germany to surrender in WW1, after its flash in the pan offensive in 1918.
Only economic weakness will deter Russia now or in future.
That is but one measure-you are looking only at the side that effects the West. Not the fact that Russia is losing technology needed to keep its oil fields running and its employment is shrinking . Wait 6 months and the West will adjust to higher energy prices whereas the Russian economy will shrink-even the Bank of Russia estimates a shrinkage of 12% or so-whereas the rest of the World may go to a mild recession.
‘But of course Moscow’s “keyboard Warriors” refuse to acknowledge this-as they haven’t yet been given instructions to do so.
This simply looks like a Russian replay of Operation Michael–with inevitably the same results.
If Putin expected to win, he should have called for full mobilization 3 months ago.
This is far to late.
You mean like the ruble turned to rubble, as Biden put it. These predictions of Russians demise seem to be very popular in the MSM, but always seem to be way off target.
And just to be clear. I am not a Russian keyboard warrior. Just someone who spends my days reading unbiased investment reports and in-depth economic analysis.
Agreed – it seems clear that Putin is unconcerned about collateral damage to the russian people – as has always been the case in that God-forsaken country.
Had Germany reverted to the defensive on the Western Front in 1918 things would have ended very differently.
They had already triumphed in the East, thanks to the genius of Max Hoffman, who had thrashed the Czar, Kerensky and the Bolsheviks in short order.
By the 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk Germany acquired a vast slice of Russia including the Ukraine. This ‘windfall’ would have more than negated the effects of the‘blockade’, but it was not be, thanks to arrogance Ludendorff & Co
Are there any serious historians of ww1 who subscribe to your view?
After USA entered the war, it was only matter of time before Germany lost.
In order to control this vast slice of Russia, Germany would require many divisions, which were not available and not easily deployable due to size of the territory gained and logistic difficulties.
Yes, Germany forced Russia to quit ww1 thanks to their agent Lenin, but end result was unavoidable.
Those Divisions you speak of were redeployed to the Western Front for ’Ludendorff’s great offensive that commenced on the 21st March 1918. But you MUST know that?
Had Germany remained on the defensive on the Hindenburg Line no doubt the Americans would have thrown everything they had at it, and been slaughtered in their thousands, just the ‘Allies’ had been before at the Somme, Passchendaele and Verdun.I think a breakthrough would have been very unlikely particularly with a gung-ho idiot like Pershing in command.
Lenin had little to do with the utter rout of the Bolshevik army by Hoffman as even that wretch Trotsky finally admitted.’They’ surrendered at B-L to save their awful Revolution.
Most modern (serious) historians, with the exception of the late Norman Stone, studiously avoid this subject for obvious reasons. Even in recent weeks, as the Ukrainian War drags on, I have seen absolutely no mention of the fact that the only brief period of quasi independence that Ukraine has ever had in many centuries of occupation, was that courtesy of the German Army and Max Hoffman in 1918.
Why on Earth post this now, at 09.00 BST, when it was written a full 12 hours ago? Unless off courses the idea is prevent any discussion! In which case it has been a howling success, well done UnHerd, you’ve live up your name admirably.
It looks like the Censor has forbidden a reply, probably boring the other readers. However I beg to disagree, as I think the late Norman Stone would have done.
Otherwise known as cutting off your whole face to spite your nose.
The people suffering most from sanctions are normal people in the west and things are going to get a LOT worse.
People are moaning that it is Putin’s fault that petrol is £2 a litre on the motorways and that fuel bills are going through the roof, but the reality is these crazy prices were caused by:
1. Sanctions our govts imposed.
2. Insane money printing by our govts.
3. Poorly thought through ‘green’ policies conjured up by our govts to win votes.
Our govts are the architects of our demise, not Putin.
Since the alternative is to allow Putin to dominate Europe, those actually don’t seem that important.
Herd Management
1 year ago
Putin will be forced to implement Order 227 just as Stalin did. Russia will need to come up with more men somehow.
D F
1 year ago
Wheat for Rubles has collective west in panic mode. Over the past few weeks, Western officials have repeatedly stressed that the problem with the availability of food is getting worse. And first of all – and to the most serious extent – it affects developing states.
At the same time, Russia is blamed for the problems in the West. Which allegedly prevents the export of grain from Ukrainian ports on the Black Sea. We are talking about 20 million tons of last year’s harvest. As if the solution of food problems, which obviously did not arise yesterday, depends only on this …
It should be noted that Russia supplies more food to world markets than Ukraine. But despite this, Western countries have imposed sanctions that clearly do not contribute to the stability of supplies.
Dmitry Medvedev, commenting on the situation, noted that “all these hellish sanctions are worthless when it comes to vital things”: “On the supply of energy resources in order to heat houses. On food to feed people. On millions of citizens who politicians need, in general, one thing: the opportunity to live normally, calmly and prosperously. Sanctions prevent this. And the expansion of NATO prevents. And mess with settlements on debts, payments and other. And what hinders me most of all is my own cosmic cretinism.” https://open.spotify.com/episode/3x9Bww1DN8cku6s1iMq0AG?fbclid=IwAR1dBDGrIoDMoZV3iFYYlv19v-20G1hnVo-D_wP1Ar_467j6j5Tc-RM7BQw
The only way to create a normal world is to insure that Russia goes back to the 90s, if not worse–and stays there for two or three generations.
That was the only way Germany was “cured” of its past horrendous history. It will probably lead to teh secession of quite a bit of Russian territory. But that is teh consequence of Putin’s decision–not ours. The Future Defederation of Russia – The Moscow Times
If we don’t decisively impoverish Putin’s Russia, he will just try it again in Poland and the Baltics.
You’re describing the treatment of Germany after the first world war.Germany was disarmed and restrictions replaced on its tearmament but they recovered military within a decade.
That didn’t cure Germany, it fuelled the rise of the Nazi party.
How Germany was treated after the second world war cured it. Marshall plan, Euripean engagement etc,
Avoiding WW1 style revenge must have been very unpalatable for the allies at the time but the Americans pushed it through. This is why Macron talks about Russia not being humiliated. He and others are afraid of a Versailles 2.0.
Punishment of Russia would be more emotionally satisfying but ‘those who ignore history etc,
No, I’m describing the SECOND treatment in both cases. We were easy on Russia after its collapse in 1991. Far easier than the Allies were on Germany in 1919.
But Russia only thought of revenge–as did many Germans after 1919.
Until Russia is thoroughly made over, as Nazi Germany was–arguably with the same federal system–we can never have peace.
Peter Branagan
1 year ago
Extraordinary! Mr Davizon appears to have been totally taken in by Western hate propaganda. His attitude reminds me of the Jüdenrat from 1941 to 1945.
BTW despite his comments to the contrary Kherson remains very firmly in Russian control where the Rouble is now the official currency; the mobile phone service has switched to +7 and all IP addresses are routed via Russia.
You miss the point that Russia has always been a Failure Oriented Civilization.
From the nobility, to the nomenklatura, to the Power Vertical, Russia is never about competence, only about loyalty. So no matter how many tanks and aircraft Russia has, it can never win a war on this scale. Most of the (at least marginally competent) are already dead–because they were the only one’s willing to lead. What’s left are the equivalent of NKVD skulkers in WW2.
Putin’s Russians dream of taking France–and cannot even take all of Sieverodonetsk.
Typical comment of theirs: Operation Z+: On Raising the Iron Curtain Which Hangs Over Europe | The Vineyard of the Saker
Much appreciate your posting this link – initially, quite disturbing. Clearly the work of a deluded ill-educated provocateur, but does he actually believe what he writes? The mislabelling and distortions are, quite literally, breath-taking.
Just read Patrushev’s interview, also in the Vineyard of the Saker.
Did people believe German govt propaganda after 1933? Did the German govt believe it? they seem to–enough to have started a World War.
No it won’t. The loss or gain of one mid-sized city that is effectively ruined means very little. Large scale mobile warfare will determine Ukraine’s fate. They need to force the Russians into maneuver warfare, where they are weak.
Looks like the war has come down to fighting over the same region that the two sides have fought over for 8 years, since the first Battle of Mariupol in 2014.
Crimea looks unlikely to ever leave Russia now, so the question is what about Donetsk and Luhansk? In theory at least part of those oblasts has been independent since 2014 and after the Russian invasion became part of Russia. Will they ever go back?
Then there is the corridor between the Donbas region and Crimea which Russia has now won control of, cutting off Ukraine from access to the Sea of Azov. Can Ukraine get that back?
Volodymyr Zelenskyy puts on a brave front but is not realistic in thinking that Ukraine can win back all this territory. He has kept Ukraine independent but no matter what happens the tensions in the east will not go away.
Maybe the Minsk accords were not such a bad deal after all and Ukraine should have lived up to its agreement.
Putin wants to be Stalin. He comes from an old communist KGB background where the last successful leader of the USSR and implicitly Russia was Joseph Stalin. Stalin smashed Ukrainian nationalism by starving them to death in the government created famine of 1923/33 when about 5 million Ukrainians were deliberately starved during the imposition of the collective farm programme and the removal of all grain and food supplies to Russia. Ukraine has been a festering sore to Putin ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union and Ukrainian independence. He wants to imitate Stalin and to be seen as the strong leader taking Russia back to greatness. So he will keep going until he annexes sufficient land in Luhansk and Donetsk to call the territory part of Russia. This means legitimate attacks and attempts to recover Ukrainian territory will be seen as attack on Russia with implications for the use of tactical nuclear weapons.
You claim great insight into Putin’s inner mind and motivations, things not apparent in the public record. Are you his psychiatrist or a close confidant? Or do you just repeat what you have been told, contrary to other evidence.
philip’s case seems reasonable to me – or are we missing something obvious here -please enlighten ??
cant help feeling that the present scenario also reeks of germany 1938 etc – and thats a hell of a combination – stalin PLUS hitler. If shocck and awe was the goal it is certainly working on me !
Your response assumes that Putin “lived up” to Minsk. That is pure claptrap. Putin as early as a year ago was issuing essays saying that the Raie was not a real state, plus the so called “rebels”, headed by Russian GRU units and backed bythe Russian military were continuously firing into the rest of the Ukraine. Your answer simpky ignores the fact that Putin uses :hybrid warfare” over an extended time whether in Georgia, Moldova, or as we have seen here, the Ukraine. He has an itch that can’t be scratched without the Ukraine falling to Russia’s hands.
The Ukrainian defensive lines in Donetsk, dating from 2014, that had held firm for weeks while the Russians moved across the open borders to the north and south have been crossed and slowly erased in the last period. As the maps have shown the Russians have been grinding their way forwards across those lines, despite the optimistic propaganda from the Ukrainians.
What we don’t know is how this is affecting Ukrainian strength. An army under continual defensive pressure, taking losses, being pushed back, and without dug-in defensive positions can lead to a sudden and dramatic large-scale withdrawal and collapse (cf Russian around Kiev). Everything could change very quickly were this to happen.
As neither side will want to fight in winter, there may also be an implicit timescale. If the first snows come in November, by September or latest October, Russians will want to be securing their positions for winter. In addition, the US and Europeans would also be facing their most severe economic and energy costs. Would this then give the Russians a negotiable end-point?
I wonder how much support Zelensky has in Ukraine for accepting more deadly weapons to continue this war against the odds of actually winning. He is the leader of a political party and I feel there must be opposition to policies which continue destroying the country’s infrastructure and the livelihood of the people.
I am also concerned about us sending long-range missiles to Ukraine. There has been an undertaking not to fire these into Russia but accidents happen. Even accidents with ulterior motives!
Every country is suffering as a result of this war and it is time for serious negotiations to take place.. At least I think so!
There was opposition to Elensky’s policies until the opposition was jailed or the media opposing him were closed down by decree.
Alas negotiations, diplomacy and a desire for peace don’t appear to be a thing these days. People seem to prefer keeping this proxy war going at all costs, even if it is causing loss of life, hardship on our own people, depletion of our own armaments, spending of money that was desperately needed within our own economy (health service, etc).
You’d think we would learn from our conflicts in Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan, but every time the politicians and media manage to justify the lies and propaganda and arms dealers and contractors make billions. War is a hugely profitable business for some people.
I know I will get lots of down votes for this comment as most people seem to be willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, and even risk nuclear Armageddon rather than use diplomacy.
I am happy to take the flack as one day people will look back and realise that this is just another Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.
Give peace a chance I say.
If Russia’s strategy is to disrupt global supply chains, create artificial famines and crank up energy prices, it needs yet to find someone else to put the blame on. Otherwise it is going to backfire on them. The non Western world did not join the West in sanctioning, but so far it didn’t give any support to Russia either. Fat chance such a strategy of world wide impoverishment will convince many countries to take Russia’s side.
Not much here about Russia slowly bleeding to death in this war of attrition. This is far far worse than their losses in Afghanistan. Meanwhile they still think they can front up to NATO with conventional weapons?
At the end of the day Ukraine doesn’t really matter to the world, if Russia has been fatally undermined. Sad but true.
And it means China won’t have a decent ally to go up against the unified west. It really couldn’t have worked out any better for the west, as some (nudge, nudge) confidently predicted over a year ago as writers and commentators praised the genius of Putin and Xi Ping.
It is a war of attrition–but attrition of the Russian economy.
Regardless of the outcome for Ukraine, we need to keep up the economic pressure on Russia. Make the ban on western parts permanent. Wean the West off of fossil fuels. Keep Russia out of SWIFT.
The blockade eventually forced Germany to surrender in WW1, after its flash in the pan offensive in 1918.
Only economic weakness will deter Russia now or in future.
Oil and gas sanctions have pushed prices up more than they have reduced sales to Russia so the West suffers more than Russia. That is not attrition.
Meant sales by Russia
That is but one measure-you are looking only at the side that effects the West. Not the fact that Russia is losing technology needed to keep its oil fields running and its employment is shrinking . Wait 6 months and the West will adjust to higher energy prices whereas the Russian economy will shrink-even the Bank of Russia estimates a shrinkage of 12% or so-whereas the rest of the World may go to a mild recession.
‘But of course Moscow’s “keyboard Warriors” refuse to acknowledge this-as they haven’t yet been given instructions to do so.
This simply looks like a Russian replay of Operation Michael–with inevitably the same results.
If Putin expected to win, he should have called for full mobilization 3 months ago.
This is far to late.
You mean like the ruble turned to rubble, as Biden put it. These predictions of Russians demise seem to be very popular in the MSM, but always seem to be way off target.
And just to be clear. I am not a Russian keyboard warrior. Just someone who spends my days reading unbiased investment reports and in-depth economic analysis.
Agreed – it seems clear that Putin is unconcerned about collateral damage to the russian people – as has always been the case in that God-forsaken country.
Had Germany reverted to the defensive on the Western Front in 1918 things would have ended very differently.
They had already triumphed in the East, thanks to the genius of Max Hoffman, who had thrashed the Czar, Kerensky and the Bolsheviks in short order.
By the 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk Germany acquired a vast slice of Russia including the Ukraine. This ‘windfall’ would have more than negated the effects of the‘blockade’, but it was not be, thanks to arrogance Ludendorff & Co
Are there any serious historians of ww1 who subscribe to your view?
After USA entered the war, it was only matter of time before Germany lost.
In order to control this vast slice of Russia, Germany would require many divisions, which were not available and not easily deployable due to size of the territory gained and logistic difficulties.
Yes, Germany forced Russia to quit ww1 thanks to their agent Lenin, but end result was unavoidable.
Those Divisions you speak of were redeployed to the Western Front for ’Ludendorff’s great offensive that commenced on the 21st March 1918. But you MUST know that?
Had Germany remained on the defensive on the Hindenburg Line no doubt the Americans would have thrown everything they had at it, and been slaughtered in their thousands, just the ‘Allies’ had been before at the Somme, Passchendaele and Verdun.I think a breakthrough would have been very unlikely particularly with a gung-ho idiot like Pershing in command.
Lenin had little to do with the utter rout of the Bolshevik army by Hoffman as even that wretch Trotsky finally admitted.’They’ surrendered at B-L to save their awful Revolution.
Most modern (serious) historians, with the exception of the late Norman Stone, studiously avoid this subject for obvious reasons. Even in recent weeks, as the Ukrainian War drags on, I have seen absolutely no mention of the fact that the only brief period of quasi independence that Ukraine has ever had in many centuries of occupation, was that courtesy of the German Army and Max Hoffman in 1918.
Why on Earth post this now, at 09.00 BST, when it was written a full 12 hours ago? Unless off courses the idea is prevent any discussion! In which case it has been a howling success, well done UnHerd, you’ve live up your name admirably.
It looks like the Censor has forbidden a reply, probably boring the other readers. However I beg to disagree, as I think the late Norman Stone would have done.
2I:50 BST.
Otherwise known as cutting off your whole face to spite your nose.
The people suffering most from sanctions are normal people in the west and things are going to get a LOT worse.
People are moaning that it is Putin’s fault that petrol is £2 a litre on the motorways and that fuel bills are going through the roof, but the reality is these crazy prices were caused by:
1. Sanctions our govts imposed.
2. Insane money printing by our govts.
3. Poorly thought through ‘green’ policies conjured up by our govts to win votes.
Our govts are the architects of our demise, not Putin.
Since the alternative is to allow Putin to dominate Europe, those actually don’t seem that important.
Putin will be forced to implement Order 227 just as Stalin did. Russia will need to come up with more men somehow.
Wheat for Rubles has collective west in panic mode. Over the past few weeks, Western officials have repeatedly stressed that the problem with the availability of food is getting worse. And first of all – and to the most serious extent – it affects developing states.
At the same time, Russia is blamed for the problems in the West. Which allegedly prevents the export of grain from Ukrainian ports on the Black Sea. We are talking about 20 million tons of last year’s harvest. As if the solution of food problems, which obviously did not arise yesterday, depends only on this …
It should be noted that Russia supplies more food to world markets than Ukraine. But despite this, Western countries have imposed sanctions that clearly do not contribute to the stability of supplies.
Dmitry Medvedev, commenting on the situation, noted that “all these hellish sanctions are worthless when it comes to vital things”: “On the supply of energy resources in order to heat houses. On food to feed people. On millions of citizens who politicians need, in general, one thing: the opportunity to live normally, calmly and prosperously. Sanctions prevent this. And the expansion of NATO prevents. And mess with settlements on debts, payments and other. And what hinders me most of all is my own cosmic cretinism.”
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3x9Bww1DN8cku6s1iMq0AG?fbclid=IwAR1dBDGrIoDMoZV3iFYYlv19v-20G1hnVo-D_wP1Ar_467j6j5Tc-RM7BQw
The only way to create a normal world is to insure that Russia goes back to the 90s, if not worse–and stays there for two or three generations.
That was the only way Germany was “cured” of its past horrendous history. It will probably lead to teh secession of quite a bit of Russian territory. But that is teh consequence of Putin’s decision–not ours.
The Future Defederation of Russia – The Moscow Times
If we don’t decisively impoverish Putin’s Russia, he will just try it again in Poland and the Baltics.
You’re describing the treatment of Germany after the first world war.Germany was disarmed and restrictions replaced on its tearmament but they recovered military within a decade.
That didn’t cure Germany, it fuelled the rise of the Nazi party.
How Germany was treated after the second world war cured it. Marshall plan, Euripean engagement etc,
Avoiding WW1 style revenge must have been very unpalatable for the allies at the time but the Americans pushed it through. This is why Macron talks about Russia not being humiliated. He and others are afraid of a Versailles 2.0.
Punishment of Russia would be more emotionally satisfying but ‘those who ignore history etc,
No, I’m describing the SECOND treatment in both cases. We were easy on Russia after its collapse in 1991. Far easier than the Allies were on Germany in 1919.
But Russia only thought of revenge–as did many Germans after 1919.
Until Russia is thoroughly made over, as Nazi Germany was–arguably with the same federal system–we can never have peace.
Extraordinary! Mr Davizon appears to have been totally taken in by Western hate propaganda. His attitude reminds me of the Jüdenrat from 1941 to 1945.
BTW despite his comments to the contrary Kherson remains very firmly in Russian control where the Rouble is now the official currency; the mobile phone service has switched to +7 and all IP addresses are routed via Russia.
The reference to the Judenrat is inappropriate and tells us more about you than Mr Davidzon.
I suspect “Mr Brannigan” lives in St Petersburg
You miss the point that Russia has always been a Failure Oriented Civilization.
From the nobility, to the nomenklatura, to the Power Vertical, Russia is never about competence, only about loyalty. So no matter how many tanks and aircraft Russia has, it can never win a war on this scale. Most of the (at least marginally competent) are already dead–because they were the only one’s willing to lead. What’s left are the equivalent of NKVD skulkers in WW2.
Putin’s Russians dream of taking France–and cannot even take all of Sieverodonetsk.
Typical comment of theirs:
Operation Z+: On Raising the Iron Curtain Which Hangs Over Europe | The Vineyard of the Saker
Much appreciate your posting this link – initially, quite disturbing. Clearly the work of a deluded ill-educated provocateur, but does he actually believe what he writes? The mislabelling and distortions are, quite literally, breath-taking.
Just read Patrushev’s interview, also in the Vineyard of the Saker.
Did people believe German govt propaganda after 1933? Did the German govt believe it? they seem to–enough to have started a World War.