I remain optimistic. It is an act of faith. The good news, for anyone who wants to hear it, is that the truth will out.

Thank you Paul and also J Bryant and Steve Murray for starting such an excellent conversation. Reading Kingsnorth I always feel that I am participating in a journey. I have spent 75 years as a seeker who has not yet “found” and I find that experience echoed at a higher level of sophistication in Kingsnorth’s life and work.
In J Bryant’s thoughtful response Bryant describes the antidote to immanence as the numinous, having a strong religious or spiritual quality. It’s in approaching the numinous that in my life I have found the work of Roger Scruton so important. In fact I feel that Professor Scruton is in this discussion right now and we should ask him to sit down and join us!
Scruton has shone a light for those of us who started on the “left” and faced the crisis caused by the poverty of scientism and materialism. I would love to have sat in on a conversation between Roger and Paul on the subject of this superb essay.

This is a wonderfully constructed piece which has given us much to ponder on – my thanks to both author and the excellent debate that has ensued .
What a subject ! In considering the many paths of thought embracing the “seeking for truth “ in the human condition , the cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman has an interesting contribution to make in our search for an understanding of consciousness and that which steers human life . Will we ever catch a real glimpse of truth in our attempt to understand the material universe ? We can – through mental discipline be aware of and counter the despotic control of the “machine” or that which would deny all freedom of thought and activity , but to reach that deeply metaphysical state of being that is totally apart from the limitation of the material , we surely need to understand and glimpse what determines individual and collective consciousness and so become aware of our practical relationship with the mighty One which we call ( in Western terms ) God

An interesting article but, perhaps inevitably, limited by the Western World history of religions. Consider Buddhism or Taoism. They don’t ‘work’ the same way. And African religions are rarely considered.
Now you could equally argue that humans tend to reify their subconscious models into religious beliefs or other philosophies, splitting the world into the sacred and the profane, or aligning with the Tao etc. Unfortunately (for the mystics) we have found that belief in the Other doesn’t satisfy so well in modern heavily populated world. There is still a desire for the transcendent but the old ways seem insufficient and there are plenty of New Age beliefs to try out.
As for Satan, the Anti-Christ, Moloch etc you could argue that this is merely the flip side of belief in gods. If God is Dead, then the Devil is dead too.

Well that was an utterly depressing start to the weekend!

Artistically, the family is taking the center again. Films such as CODA and Everything, Everywhere All At Once along with shows such as Ted Lasso have started to reject nihilism. The past decade and a half has been one of mourning, but I believe we have exhausted the antihero as the premier mythological figure of our culture today.

There are plenty left but they do not dominate the cultural arena as they did 10 years ago. I find many more shows and films are about repairing broken relationships. It is early and art is always years ahead of mainstream culture, let alone politics. Let’s see where we are in 2032.

Brilliant, as always, if a mite depressing. I don’t think the triumph of Moloch is inevitable, unless we really are in the “end times”. Human beings have always had a tendency to believe that – see Paul in some of his letters, or the medieval world in the years before 1,000 AD. Personally, I think God, the Tao, the cosmos, whatever we label it, has a bigger, grander agenda than any fantasy of the Technium or Singularity. It may not necessarily include humanity however; we may be found wanting.

“robot apartments” puzzled me.

I agree with the concerns raised in the article, but I think that Remy Brague is a much better diagnostician of present days’ ills. Guenon’s prophecies have the underlying assumptions that outside the West, truth exists and is well preserved? The great religions are predicated on different core ideas and if we are looking for truth, at one point we will have to reject some of them. It is peculiar to me that Allen Ginsberg equivalated America with the pagan god Moloch! America saved Europe and the world of Nazism, a little gratitude would be welcomed. Plus, Moloch is the god which required child sacrifices, therefore the abortion industry serves better this pagan entity. But I could agree that the US and the West, is inspired by Proteus, the shape shifting god who transformed matter, and Prometeus the ambitious demigod who brought light to humans.
Remy Brague (The Kingdom of Man: Genesis and Failure of the Modern Project), did not vilify technology, neither do I because I am very grateful for making our lives easier and better in many ways, he decried that God was eliminated from the equation. According to him, man is no longer the subject of divine creation, but the object of nature and self-creation. Now, humanity derives its existence from itself, and this project is bound to fail. The premodern man didn’t intend to dominate the world but aimed at self-mastery which required the right orientation of the soul, instead of self-control which seeks the fulfilment of human desires.
But we still have to acknowledge that the pillars of the West are revelation and reason. Revelation was pushed aside, and now the other pillar is about to be eliminated: reason. Instead, we need to recuperate revelation and subordinate reason to it.
Our mind is programmed to think in terms of either-or, we blame our problems on materialism so the solution seems to be to vilify and reject it, but we need both: spirituality and material goods for a decent life. Those who were born behind the Iron Curtain or China and many other countries just dream of living in that ‘bad’ America or other Western country. Poverty, chronic lack of goods is exhausting and deeply depressing. Don’t take for granted that you go shopping and find what you need, that most of the people can afford a decent living. It is not common in most of the countries.
If I look at Mr. Kingsnorth article from a spiritual level, I see a ‘Paradise Lost’ syndrome, a cry after the state before the original sin. But we live in a fallen world, we cannot have a paradise on earth, that is on another ontological realm.

What was unsaid is this. The chess player can see many moves ahead. What does that mean? See? The composer hears the melody before it travels down his arm to write it on lines and spaces that a musician will read. How does the composer hear it? It’s called perception. People perceive.
Since the beginning of man some people, not others perceive the spiritual realm. They perceive it through an event. They perceive it in their mind. Others can’t. Some are very sure the spiritual realm exists. Others can only catch a glimpse.
Parents try to transfer their conception to their kids. Kids will take it, disregard it, take someone else’s conception or abandon the conception altogether. It will depend on their ability to perceive something of it. Some will ignore their lack of ability if they believe the ability exists. Some will search. Others will know.
So like this essay, things will change and there will be attempts to abandon mankind’s common thread. It is the thread of the spiritual realm coming back because people will see it, experience it and perceive it no matter how many computer screens they stare at. It will come up over and over like blades of grass through a crack in the sidewalk. It will continue to exist because mankind sees that it exists.

This land of lost content, Land of Cokaygne Dark Mountain Project nihilism must stop. Kingsnorth’s mythical novel ‘The Wake’ illustrates this. The novel ( it’s definitely not history) uses an interesting Ur Saxon made up language to suggest we were all freer Saxons close to nature before the nasty Normans destroyed our prelapsarian community all would be well. Turns out many historians think the Normans ended actual mass abject slavery, common in Norse and Saxon society and most of the mass desteuction of woodland had been going on for centuries. It’s easy to burn a forest down for farming. It never was better- and maybe not much better for common people after the invasion. If only somehow we were all more spiritual in some celtic twilighty way ( Kingsnorth I believe has scuttled off to the West of Ireland to get away from the rest of us horrible lot). It’s worth dipping into the dippy Dark Mountain site- the enlightened writer priests will ruminate eeyorishly on the end of days apparently while we all go into the dark. Definitely not solution thinking.

It is a great loss that we do not understand anymore the fundamental difference between Christianity and the other religions, which was explained by Rene Berthelot in his book, Le pensee De L’Asie Et L’Astrobiologie.’ There he espoused his view that Christianity is the religion beyond history. From a different angle, Vishal Mangalwadi, Christian convert and philosopher explains the main difference between Christianity which is not fatalistic, and Islam plus Hinduism. Worth reading both!

To be in a perpetual state of “Progress” ahead of any historical context, because how could we possibly gage ourselves with outdated context, with no constraints on any freedom, immoral or otherwise, while living with anxiety, weakness and submission means “being” in a perpetual “Lockdown” by a Totalitarian government. A post modern feudalism eating bugs and whatever lies and propaganda we’re supposed to swallow. Inversion is a theologically used term meaning Evil. We are a serpent swallowing it’s tail because that’s what nihilists do. If we don’t turn this ship around, we are heading toward a purge like no other. The courts just set precedent with the Sussman trial, it’s okay to lie, if you “think” you can get away with it. To think is to be? I am a she, he, they, them? Virtual reality, transhumanism, lust, greed, living in a perpetual state of need. Sounds like Hell to me.

Another point to bare in mind is attitude. Do you want to shut something out or include it in your own consciousness, own world. So are you hostile to the future or open to it is the simple question?

Exactly two centuries ago ‘we’ would have been entertained by this:-

“The Devil to prove the Church was a farce
Went out to fish for a b****r.
He baited his hook with a Soldier’s arse
And pulled up the Bishop of Clogher.”*

(*The Hon Percy Jocelyn, arrested on a capital charge of contravening the 1533: An Acte for the punishment of the vice of Buggerie.)

I don’t necessarily agree with J Bryant. A society based on agreeing to disagree has never existed. Every society must revolve around a central totem—a supernatural force that gives people a common goal and devotion. 
Religion is the only foundation for human social life due to its two unique functions: 1) its ability to tantalise and 2) its use of incredibly simple symbology. An ideology like rationalism can’t accomplish that without devolving into a totalitarian cult, as the author says.
Secularism and liberalism are entirely modern and transient phenomena. If it is not Christianity, it will be another religion that fills the void left by the Enlightenment and that reclaims the totemic centre. There is no escaping the fact that society is fundamentally religious in nature.

I agree with the concerns raised in the article, but I think that Remy Brague is a much better diagnostician of present days’ ills. Guenon’s prophecies have the underlying assumptions that outside the West, truth exists and is well preserved? The great religions are predicated on different core ideas and if we are looking for truth, at one point we will have to reject some of them. It is peculiar to me that Allen Ginsberg equivalated America with the pagan god Moloch! America saved Europe and the world of Nazism, perhaps a little gratitude could convince me of Ginsberg’s good intentions. Plus, Moloch is the god which required child sacrifices, therefore the abortion industry serves better this pagan entity. But I could agree that the US and the West, is inspired by Proteus, the shape shifting god who transformed matter, and Prometeus the ambitious demigod who brought light to humans.
Remy Brague (The Kingdom of Man: Genesis and Failure of the Modern Project), did not vilify technology, neither do I because I am very grateful for making our lives easier and better in many ways, he decried that God was eliminated from the equation. According to him, man is no longer the subject of divine creation, but the object of nature and self-creation. Now, humanity derives its existence from itself, and this project is bound to fail. The premodern man didn’t intend to dominate the world but aimed at self-mastery which required the right orientation of the soul, instead of self-control which seeks the fulfilment of human desires. 
But we still have to acknowledge that the pillars of the West are revelation and reason. Revelation was pushed aside, and now the other pillar is about to be eliminated: reason. Instead, we need to recuperate revelation and subordinate reason to it.
Our mind is programmed to think in terms of either-or, we blame our problems on materialism so the solution seems to be to vilify and reject it, but we need both: spirituality and material goods for a decent life. Those who were born behind the Iron Curtain or China and many other countries just dream of living in that ‘bad’ America or other Western country. Poverty, chronic lack of goods is exhausting and deeply depressing. Don’t take for granted that you go shopping and find what you need, that most of the people can afford a decent living. It is not common in most of the countries.
If I look at Mr. Kingsnorth article from a spiritual level, I see a ‘Paradise Lost’ syndrome, a cry after the state before the original sin. But we live in a fallen world, we cannot have a paradise on earth, that is on another ontological realm.
Last but not the least, don’t envy the spirituality of other countries, many of them practice dubious forms of it, there is a lot of superstition, irrationality, blasphemy accusations, lawlessness, and rudimentarity.