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R Wright
R Wright
2 years ago

Thank you for a proper rational look into what drives Putin. I am rather tired of the simple “military invasion = insane madman trope” as if things were ever that straight forward. I can’t recall people questioning Blair’s faculties twenty years ago.

Peter B
Peter B
2 years ago
Reply to  R Wright

I can. Over 1 million people marched to question Blair’s faculties. Where were you ???

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
2 years ago
Reply to  R Wright

Germans didn’t think Hitler was insane, just an extremist who latched on to any old cultural claptrap to justify, with no decent long, his prejudices.
This writer analyses Putin’s cultural justifications as if they have deep meaning, giving him the respectability of decent reasoning behind his motivations. No he’s just the same as Hitler, a bully with no empathy for those he’s bullying.
You can try to understand a bully when they punch you in the face, and they’ll just punch you some more.

Last edited 2 years ago by Ian Stewart
Thomas Cushman
Thomas Cushman
2 years ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

The author of the piece doesn’t in any war give Putin any respectability or attribute decent reasoning to him. In fact the general thrust of the article is that he may be guided by irrational, mystical charlatans whose theories are dangerous myths that nonetheless may be playing a role in unleashing aggression and bloodshed. No one who carefully reads this article could argue that the author is somehow justifying what Putin is doing.

Brooke Walford
Brooke Walford
2 years ago

I’m wondering if all this erudite and detailed parsing of the myriad historical, ideological and religious strands in relation to Putin’s behaviour actually disguises brutal reality. Specifically, the deliberate and systematic concentration of executive power in Putin’s hands; the ruthless intolerance of any expression of dissent; a kleptocratic finance system that immiserate the masses; a propaganda machine that hermetically seals out the truth and now a callous disregard for agonising suffering.

Warren T
Warren T
2 years ago
Reply to  Brooke Walford

Are you talking about the Democrat Party in the U.S.?

2A Solution
2A Solution
2 years ago
Reply to  Warren T

Must be… The difference is the news of the dims assaults get buried by the press.

Brooke Walford
Brooke Walford
2 years ago
Reply to  Warren T

A touch unfair…

Bruce Gluckman
Bruce Gluckman
2 years ago
Reply to  Brooke Walford

It is both. His means exist to justify himself cloaked in a higher purpose, his notion of a world historical mission in which he believes. Dictators tend to do that.

Thomas Cushman
Thomas Cushman
2 years ago
Reply to  Brooke Walford

I think what the author is trying to explain, in a powerful and astute way, are the reasons that lie behind all of the troublesome things you mention. Her article is one of the best things I’ve read that attempt a real sophisticated sociological explanation – not the only one – of key cultural forces that are causative variables for Russian aggression. Ideas move leaders to do things, even if they are false, dangerous, etc. As Max Weber said, to paraphrase, it may not be that ideas directly cause historical events; they are like “switchmen” that move the trains of history in certain directions.

Last edited 2 years ago by Thomas Cushman
Brooke Walford
Brooke Walford
2 years ago
Reply to  Thomas Cushman

Like the Weber reference, reminds me of the Trolley Car Dilemma — to murder one to save five. Like many thought experiments it’s far too reductive.

Thomas Cushman
Thomas Cushman
2 years ago
Reply to  Brooke Walford

I doing think Weber was engaging in a thought experiment, or any kind of reductive argument, if that’s what you’re arguing. He was trying to say that ideas, ideologies, culture shape human actions and it seems that the author of this piece is illuminating how it is that might be doing so in Russia, historically, and in the present day. If one doesn’t believe that they do, that’s one thing, but that doesn’t win the argument about whether or not they actually do.

Ian Stewart
Ian Stewart
2 years ago
Reply to  Thomas Cushman

And while you strive to understand him, Ukrainians are being slaughtered. Is this a priority? Reminds me of the bleeding heart liberals who insist that we need to help criminals instead of punishing them – and forget about their victims.

Thomas Cushman
Thomas Cushman
2 years ago
Reply to  Ian Stewart

Social scientists like the author of this piece and myself try to explain human behavior. As ethical beings, we can and should make value judgements, and the task of understanding why people do things, analyzing why they do what they do is one thing, in no way justifies, absolves, or helps their criminal enterprises. The author’s piece is a sophisticated analysis of why a leader like Putin and his henchmen unleashed this horrible war. I doubt it’s possible to have a serious debate about this with someone who seemingly has never read a history book about war or anything else for that matter.

Last edited 2 years ago by Thomas Cushman
2A Solution
2A Solution
2 years ago
Reply to  Brooke Walford

And this is different from “their” norm how?

Edward Seymour
Edward Seymour
2 years ago

Come along Milos. There is no reading of this thoughtful discussion concerning the philosophical and mystical religious influences that shape Putin that have any relevance to Brexit. You discredit yourself with a cheap shot.

Milos Bingles
Milos Bingles
2 years ago
Reply to  Edward Seymour

The essay was about philosophical notions of nation and empire. That passage stood out to me. It’s easy to point out the twisted thinking of our enemies and harder to see it in ourselves.
Nationalism of any form is problematic.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Milos Bingles

Why does that passage stand out? I never once heard empire or past glories used as a reason from anybody who voted to leave the EU

Martin Brumby
Martin Brumby
2 years ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Absolutely.
Only the tired old drum the apologists and enthusiasts for the incompetent, bureaucratic nightmare of the EU insisted on beating. And beat yet.

Paul K
Paul K
2 years ago
Reply to  Milos Bingles

I never once heard a Brexit voter using the empire as a justification for wanting to leave the EU, though I did read a lot of columns in the Guardian explaining that this was what peoples’ ‘real’ motivations were. I think we could call this, ahem, ‘misinformation.’
As for nationalism being ‘problematic’: well, maybe, but the last time I looked, the combined death toll of the anti-nationalist and internationalist ideologies of the 2oth century was 100 million. I don’t think Brexit has exceeded this yet.

James Chater
James Chater
2 years ago
Reply to  Milos Bingles

‘Ethno/religious-nationalism’ is always potentially repulsive. And I do agree, even ‘civic-nationalism’, once it has served its purpose, i.e. promoting and establishing independence, can be quietly ignored. Traditions and cultures are not the same as nationalism of course, which makes regionalism more reasonable and sustainable.

I don’t know enough history of Russia but it seems its multi-ethnic ‘nationalism’ was always there but always suppressed brutally. The Soviets utilised the excitement of the Revolution for some kind of ostensible ‘independence’ for the separate ethnicities/regions. We know the rest…

Last edited 2 years ago by James Chater
Judy Englander
Judy Englander
2 years ago
Reply to  Milos Bingles

You seem to be confusing nationalism with imperialism. Liberal nationalism of nineteenth century Europe wanted to liberate ethnic minorities from the continental empires. They desired free, liberal democracies without expansion. National self-determination and democracy were – and are – intertwined. Contrary to the usual narrative, Germany 1933-45 wasn’t nationalism; it was old-fashioned imperialism by a country resentful that it had no empire, trampling on the national identity of other ethnic groups, seeking to turn ‘the East’ into a colony for German farmers. There is nothing ‘problematic’ with nation-states living peacefully within their own borders and celebrating their unique cultures.

Last edited 2 years ago by Judy Englander
Francis MacGabhann
Francis MacGabhann
2 years ago
Reply to  Milos Bingles

Gandhi?

James Chater
James Chater
2 years ago

Has there ever been a period when the majority of the people in that huge land mass have ever been somewhat happy?
‘Tragedy’ is the easy cliche.

Last edited 2 years ago by James Chater
David Bell
David Bell
2 years ago
Reply to  James Chater

I’m sure on an individual basis they have had happy moments but they’ve never had a decent, fair and representative form of government. The older generation in particular only respect a “strong man” leader as that’s all they’ve ever known.

Martin Logan
Martin Logan
2 years ago

This is really about the “Siloviki” (members of the various security services) trying to find a new “cause” after the end of the Soviet Union.
Without a world-wide Communist Revolution to promote, they correctly understood that they would be marginalized in a pared-down Russia. So the Russian World was the handiest new cause to adopt.
The “Russian World” may well shape their thinking somewhat. But they could just as easily have settled on some other “cause” to justify continued war with external enemies.
The Siloviki want to keep playing the only game they understand.
It’s the Great Game that justifies their existence, not the Russian World.

Warren T
Warren T
2 years ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

Isn’t that what the world has been about for eons? Power. In a very perverted sense, this reversion back to the real world is somewhat comforting in that we have lived in a false reality over the last 75 years, where many have been lulled into the delusion of “give peace a chance”. It is why we elect feckless, loafer-wearing, latte sipping metrosexuals to positions of high power. Perhaps the tide will change.

Martin Logan
Martin Logan
2 years ago
Reply to  Warren T

Er, there IS a little difference between imperfect western democracies and the new totalitarian Russian state which sends people to prison for correctly noting that their country is at war.

Terence Fitch
Terence Fitch
2 years ago

Not exactly Peter or Catherine the Great then. More Mongol Yoke, Ivan.

Martin Logan
Martin Logan
2 years ago
Reply to  Terence Fitch

Muscovite Russia is a direct descendant of the Tatar hegemony.
While Poland and the Zaporozhian Cossacks fought the Khan, Moscow collected his taxes.

2A Solution
2A Solution
2 years ago
Reply to  Martin Logan

They all did what was convenient at the time.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
2 years ago
Reply to  Terence Fitch

Peter ‘the Great’ was an utterly ruthless and brutal tyrant. Among many tens of thousands who died by his direct order (not least in the construction of At Petersburg) he had his own son tortured and flayed to death.

This was in many ways worse than the Mongols / Tatars, who were quite undoubtedly willing to wipe out entire cities if they resisted. However after the conquest they tended to encourage trade and did not impose religious conformity or any ideology on their subjects.

Last edited 2 years ago by Andrew Fisher
Richard Riheed
Richard Riheed
2 years ago

Thank you, Marlene, this is an excellent article.

R Wright
R Wright
2 years ago

Internationalism killed far more Russians than nationalism ever did. Perhaps you might want to read Marx?

Richard Calhoun
Richard Calhoun
2 years ago

Excellent analysis of what drives Putin and your conclusion that Putin is an isolated and ageing Leader is the most likely explanation of this Ukraine tragedy

David Bell
David Bell
2 years ago

An ageing, isolated leader of a declining former superpower whose ever-diminishing population is incapable of protecting its already enormously long borders without needlessly expanding them.

Paul K
Paul K
2 years ago

It seems nationalism of any kind is toxic.’
I imagine the Ukrainians would be surprised to hear it.

Colin Elliott
Colin Elliott
2 years ago
Reply to  Paul K

And the British commonwealth in 1939.

Luke I
Luke I
2 years ago

The Russian peoples (emphasis on pleural) is an interesting pivot away from older pan-slavic nationalism.

Is multiculturalism seen as a veil or even part-justification for expansion of the Russian state? Taking Ukraine would merely create more Russian peoples of slightly different ethnicity.

China also likes to parade its ethnic minorities to pretend they aren’t subjugated by a Han-Chinese authoritarian regime.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
2 years ago

That is a truly ridiculous and bathetic comparison! Brexit was not motivated by visions of restoring the Empire, and there are no shadowy figures in Britain plotting its restoration.

With regard to your wider point, firstly the whole concept of nationalism is difficult to apply to the Russian case, which is in fact a main contributor to the Ukrainian tragedy. Do we mean belief in a nation comprising all Russian-speakers, which has never in fact existed, or the much larger historical multi-ethnic territories ruled by the Tsars?

If all nationalism is toxic, then we can really make no judgements about history and governance at all; the Third Reich, Ireland, much the same thing.

But, to those fondly imagining a world government as the answer to this, what earthly reason do we have to think this might not be like a large China? Or perhaps more realistically a large Afghanistan, undergoing permanent civil conflict? At least now people can at least to a limited degree which countries are run better for the benefit of their citizens.

Last edited 2 years ago by Andrew Fisher
Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
2 years ago

I’m sorry, while the analysis is entertaining, in terms of explaining Russia’s invasion it is nonsense.
For a rational, straightforward explanation you only need to refer to Henry Kissinger, Zbigniew Brzezinski, John Mearsheimer, George Friedman, or George Kennan. In different ways and urgency and given NATOs aggression, they have been warning for 25 years this would happen sooner or later.
The “why” of Russia’s action is no mystery. An interesting question would be: Why NOW?

Warren T
Warren T
2 years ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

One single 5 word answer: Sleepy Joe Biden is POTUS.

Stephen Magee
Stephen Magee
2 years ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

NATO’s aggression against Russia? NATO has not fired a shot against Russia or its people in all of its existence.

Thomas Cushman
Thomas Cushman
2 years ago
Reply to  Stephen Magee

If I read the article correctly, she is trying to illustrate why Russian intellectuals and neo-imperialists would find it intolerable for Ukraine to be part of NATO. Ever. The sad part about this is that it was all very foreseeable.

David Zersen
David Zersen
2 years ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

Rather silly comment. Assuming that five American thinkers who predate Putin represent his thought is not rational. Putin is an intelligent reader and as Laruelle understands (and as Giles Fraser pointed out in an earlier article in UnHerd) he is influenced by pan-Slavic and pan-Orthodox visionaries whom Western political thinkers have never bothered to read.

Tim Dilke
Tim Dilke
2 years ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

In this almost Shakespearen tragedy there is a background (described above) and a foreground. One of the best explanations of ‘why now’ I have read was written by Dmitri Alperovitch (@dalperovitch) in December. If Putin wanted to do something about it, time was running out. Of course the intelligence he was given was woefully incorrect.

Thomas Cushman
Thomas Cushman
2 years ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

You are simply choosing a different kind of explanatory framework. The author is seeking to understand the intellectual, ideological, religious, and cultural influences on decisions to go to war in Ukraine. You can reduce the cause to “NATO expansion”, but the author does an excellent job helping us to understand the reasons why such expansion might have activated the forces she discusses to move Putin and his acolytes to go to war. A uni-causal explanation such as you propose is simplistic, and, in your terms, “nonsense.”

David Bell
David Bell
2 years ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

“Nato’s aggression”? Elucidate, please.

Bruce Haycock
Bruce Haycock
2 years ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

It is the peoples of the border states who have been clamouring for EU economic security and NATO border security. EU and NATO responses have been tentative or careful in the main. Certainly not eagerly opportunistic. Nor aggressive and threatening as in the Russian narrative

The more proactive response of the West to Ukraine was in direct response to the Russian moves in 2014, once the soft power attempt to install a puppet govt failed.

I don’t buy into this ‘blame the West for forcing Russia’s hand’ one little bit. The response of the West to 2014 events, under Obama no less, may have raised Russia’s insecurity quotient, but the article points to a range of world view and deep cultural drivers of a greater weight than being stood up to a little bit, by way of a loud populist government and the defensive arms supplies

Putin and the inner circle, whatever its make up and matrix of influence, decided the operational mission was timely and in line with the raison d’etre of the grand Mission, however that is defined, and went in.

Like any war, plans and playbooks evaporate in the first hour and it’s response to response from then on.

Hard to say what this will look like in 4 to 6 weeks

Adrian Doble
Adrian Doble
2 years ago

Great essay. Ukraine has clearly moved on in cultivating its own identity.

Neven Curlin
Neven Curlin
2 years ago

Crazy, crazy Putin. Why won’t he just accept NATO missile systems at a striking range of 5-10 minutes from Moscow, run by the heroes of the Azov Regiment?

Why won’t he just accept perpetual shelling and an eventual blitzkrieg invasion of Lugansk and Donetsk, and the concomitant cultural and linguistic suppression of the Russian minority in the rest of Ukraine?

Why will that madman and his Mongol barbarian people, who have never made any artistic or literary contribution worth speaking of, simply not accept it?

It is so strange to us Westerners, with our superior neoliberal, woke, culture-killing, atomizing consumerism to promote wealth concentration at the expense of everything. Those crazy commy Rooskies must have some insane ideological motivation that is so far below our moral value Valhalla, that we simply cannot see what it is.

What an incredibly complex mystery it all is. Thank you for your enlightening contribution, Marlène Laruelle in Washington.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
2 years ago
Reply to  Neven Curlin

Those missiles were never kept anywhere near the Russian border until he decided to help himself to large chunks of another nations territory

David Bell
David Bell
2 years ago
Reply to  Neven Curlin

Any thoughts for the Ukrainians who are courageously resisting invasion of their sovereign territory or just sarcastic, anti-Nato whataboutery?

Steve Elliott
Steve Elliott
2 years ago

In the weeks running up to the invasion there were a number of ‘expert’ commentators saying that Russia had no intention of invading. This was at a time when Putin was saying he had no intention of invading but many western leaders were saying yes he did. The main argument the commentators gave seemed to boil down to something like – “Putin would be stupid or insane to invade Ukraine at this time because of (various reasons) and Putin is neither stupid nor insane”. So perhaps he is insane.

Christopher Elletson
Christopher Elletson
2 years ago

Cutting the Gordian knot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6mw9U62ZJU
Professor John Mearsheimer

Colin Elliott
Colin Elliott
2 years ago

On the contrary, many Brexiteers recognise imperialism in the EU; an ideology of ‘ever-greater union’, expansion, striving for extending regulation by centralised government and increasing its detail, and a shocked and hostile reaction to the decision of one component to leave it.
I don’t actually think members want it, especially those which have recently escaped bondage, but have solid reasons for membership, based on a balance of benefit versus advantage. However, ideology has always proved a useful tool for those seeking power and wealth, and for a small number who have sincere faith.

Last edited 2 years ago by Colin Elliott
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
2 years ago

I was wondering how to work Covid into my reply. There definitely seems to be some alignment to me.

2A Solution
2A Solution
2 years ago

Yes.

One of the reaasons Americans can’t get all this is we discount the importance of religion everywhere but here in America. Separating these two factions is none of our business.

Diarmuid Ó Sé
Diarmuid Ó Sé
2 years ago

A very clear summary of the Russian nationalist and Eurasianist thinking which has influenced Putin, by somebody who clearly knows her stuff.

Adrian Doble
Adrian Doble
2 years ago

How quaint

Zorro Tomorrow
Zorro Tomorrow
2 years ago

Looking at history Scotland could declare UDI and UK could take Virginia back. Don’t even think about Ireland. When I lived in Germany 35 years ago people would ask me why we’d invaded N.Ireland. My own sister asked me why BAOR was still occupying Germany. Putin isn’t in court explaining his actions. He may soon well be.