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N Forster
N Forster
8 months ago

“I want to swim and compete as who I am,” Thomas said in a recent interview
“I want”
Thomas believes they have the right to get what they want.
None of us do.
My hope is that Thomas learns how to live in a world which is not in accordance with his perceptions and preferences. That surely would be better than the rest of us having to join Thomas in his fantasy that he is female. He isn’t.
And better for Thomas too, as learning to live in world not in accordance with our wishes, that doesn’t align with our perceptions, learning that we can’t always get what we want, learning that we don’t have the right to dictate to others are the hallmarks of transitioning from child to adult.

 

Last edited 8 months ago by N Forster
Patrick Butler
Patrick Butler
8 months ago
Reply to  N Forster

Admirably worded comment, and unspoiled by misleading adjectives such as “natal female” or “born female.” Such modifiers wrongly imply that there are more than one kind of female which must be distinguished such as “legally female” or whatever kind of female Thomas claims to be.

Last edited 8 months ago by Patrick Butler
michael stanwick
michael stanwick
8 months ago
Reply to  Patrick Butler

I agree. This improper use of language also happens when discussing the erosion of boundary conditions of categories, as in this case. When discussing the swimmer the proper noun(“Lia”) is changed from being a label to being a classifier. Using “Lia” means the person is positioning (classifying) themselves within the class or category of “woman”. And the personal pronoun “she”, being a substitute for the proper noun, also becomes a classifier.
And since the class of “woman” has lost its unambiguous attachment to adult human female, it has been turned into a mere label. So proper nouns, as labels, are turned into classifiers, and pronouns as proper noun substitutes are turned into classifiers and common nouns now become mere labels.
IMO, the misleading goes much deeper into the deconstruction of language codification.

Martin Adams
Martin Adams
8 months ago
Reply to  N Forster

Thank you. I agree with Patrick Butler, and his reference to “misleading adjectives”. I am particularly struck by these simple points:
1) your comment insults none of the people involved;
2) it shows a genuine concern for those caught up in the fictive world of transgenderism;
3) I don’t recall seeing an MSM article on this subject that has the moral courage to use “him” without any hint of apology or explanation.
4) Congratulations on the use of “transitioning” in your final sentence.

N Forster
N Forster
8 months ago
Reply to  Martin Adams

Ta

Michael J
Michael J
8 months ago

Unfortunately, there is no compassionate middle way and the only way to end this is to acknowledge that as a society we cannot fully accommodate the demands of a trans-identifying minority and the delusions of “queer theory” or “gender identity theory”. In sports, as in other areas of life, we should be clear that categories are sex-based and that you cannot identify yourself out of one sex-based category into another and neither does HRT or surgery change your sex. So while you can take on the trappings of the other sex you can never become the other sex and so women’s sport is solely for women and women’s changing rooms, loos, wards and refuges are also only for women. If we deny the truth about this then, as we are seeing, there will be unwanted and harmful consequences. We need to step back from prioritising an emotional and empathetic response and revert to more clear headed thinking to resolve social issues.

Last edited 8 months ago by Michael J
Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
8 months ago
Reply to  Michael J

There is a compassionate middle way:
No trans woman who has gone through a male puberty can compete in sports against genetic women that depend on strength and speed. Full stop.
But I see no problem with letting trans women compete in figure skating and synchronized swimming, etc.
Only trans women who have gone through medical transition should be legally identified as women, and only then allowed to use women’s facilities. But even without laws restricting access to women’s spaces, men can still dress as women and violate women’s spaces.
Hormones and surgery can change your secondary sex characteristics, but they cannot change your genetic sex, nor can they alter the benefits of going through a male puberty.
But this middle way gets lost in the screams from extremists on both sides. It is insane.

Daria Angelova
Daria Angelova
8 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

I don’t know much about synchronised swimming so I can’t comment, but I can assure you that there’s a very good reason why individual figure skating is divided into men’s and women’s competitions. The technical scoring is crucial and male figure skaters are capable of achieving the difficult jumps that no female figure skater would be able to match.

The sports where the biological sex is irrelevant, such as equestrian, are already mixed sex.

The point about medically transitioned trans women sounds reasonable, but the problem is that even the full transition doesn’t guarantee that all trans women would pass for females. We humans are very good at identifying biological sex and there are too many things that instantly give it away. I absolutely don’t want to have to change in front of an obviously male person regardless of whether they have male genitalia or not.

The middle way here would be to provide a separate third space, but trans activists aren’t interested in campaigning for those.

Last edited 8 months ago by Daria Angelova
Peter Dawson
Peter Dawson
8 months ago
Reply to  Daria Angelova

They – the trans activists – want the world – and they want it now – “I want never gets” as my late mother used to din into us.

Andrew Lale
Andrew Lale
8 months ago
Reply to  Daria Angelova

Providing a separate third space for people with a mental disorder is very 2022.

N Forster
N Forster
8 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

It isn’t clear that there are extremists on both sides. There are trans activists who demand we all join in with their fictions, and there are those who refuse. The middle ground is taken up by those who just want a quiet life.
Refusing to repeat trans activist lies and to open the door to womens’ spaces to men is not an extreme position.

Andrew Fisher
Andrew Fisher
8 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Penny, I think your ‘solution’ is a bit muddled. Men can’t simply pass as women by ‘wearing a dress’ because they look obviously like, well, er, men! In any case, I think generally people should be able to wear what the hell they want – much less damaging to society than declaring men to be women!

Most people are already pretty sensible and even “progressive” on this issue. Fully ‘transitioned’ people are generally accepted into the facilities of the gender they have transitioned into. But not people simple declaring themselves ‘trans’. Sports are an exception, for the obvious reasons explained in the article.

Andrew Lale
Andrew Lale
8 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

‘compassionate’- has there been a more despoiled word in the English language?

Warren T
Warren T
7 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

If believing that a biological male is, in fact, male then call me an extremist.

Drahcir Nevarc
Drahcir Nevarc
8 months ago
Reply to  Michael J

Quite right.

Daria Angelova
Daria Angelova
8 months ago

I’ve seen the idea of separate sporting events for trans athletes floated many many times, and in theory it’s nice to think that we could all agree on a practical solution that satisfies everyone. Unfortunately I can’t see trans rights activists being satisfied with this proposal, as it completely misunderstands the nature of their demands and their very worldview. Which is that trans women are women and therefore should be allowed to compete with women. The recent interview with Lia Thomas made this abundantly clear. To acknowledge that they don’t belong in women’s spaces dismantles the entire fictional universe they would rather live in.
The other elephant in the room is that these trans events would be of marginal interest to anyone, even less so than the Paralympics, unless you’re actually interested in watching deliberately weakened males and chemically enhanced females compete against each other. Why would you want to take a downgrade and deliberately give up participation in the events that receive way more exposure, sponsorship, etc.?
Ultimately, in order to protect women’s sports, sporting bodies must show resolve and have a stomach for weathering the accusations of transphobia. It’s clear however that many of them would rather face the accusations of being unfair to women than be labelled transphobic.

Steve Elliott
Steve Elliott
8 months ago
Reply to  Daria Angelova

Would there have to be separate sporting events for transmen and transwomen? You’d have to have 4 classes of event.

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
8 months ago

Most of this fails to surprise me any more, but I was disturbed by this comment “Lia walks around the women’s locker room exposed”; if someone walked around and exposed his or her gentalia to an unconsenting person of the opposite sex it would be a crime. But then I suppose the trans rights lobby would merely say that they are not the opposite sex as Lia is a woman. A good defence for any “flasher” then.

Last edited 8 months ago by Linda Hutchinson
Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
8 months ago

Careful, Linda. You’re phallophobia is showing through.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
8 months ago

My wife tells me that women tend to be pretty discreet even in a woman’s changing room occupied by women only and tend not to wander around displaying their genitalia. If the description you quote means this is what Lia does there seems to be a lack of conformity to feminine norms but rather to exhibitionist male norms. Lia clearly doesn’t take being a woman too seriously except to gain prominence in a sport by claiming to be a woman.

R S Foster
R S Foster
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

…autogynophilia…female attracted males who derive excitement from imagining themselves as women or wearing women’s clothes. So presumably doing so amongst unclad women (and girls) in what were female-only spaces is likely to raise that excitement to a considerable extent. Hence also occasional reports of pre-op Transwomen insisting they are “Lesbians”, and for actual Lesbians to decline their advances is “Transphobic”…
…welcome to the looking-glass…

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

I can confirm what your wife says; even in communal fitting rooms nearly all women take pains to show as little as possible. Strange really, because I’m sure that many of the younger women will bare nearly all on a beach.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago

Apparently Lia also becomes aroused by females.

Warren T
Warren T
7 months ago

Perfect place to hang up your wet bathing suite.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
7 months ago
Reply to  Warren T

Apparently his rudder allows him extra fluency in the water.

Steve Elliott
Steve Elliott
8 months ago

There was a report on the website of a Scottish newspaper which was headlined “Scot exposed HER p***s to shocked onlookers”. I believe the report was swiftly removed after a lot of ridicule.

Paddy Taylor
Paddy Taylor
8 months ago

Caitlyn Jenner, who clearly knows more about elite competitive sport and transgenderism than most, risked the ire of the hair-triggered offence peddlers of the Trans lobby by speaking out on this issue.
“This is a question of fairness. That’s why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls’ sports. … It just isn’t fair, and we have to protect girls’ sports”.
In the current climate it took real bravery to voice that opinion publicly.
Say what you like about Caitlyn Jenner, but you’ve gotta admire her b a l l s

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
8 months ago

I have a more simple solution, simply rename the categories of competitors.
Group 1 can be for biological females only.
Group 2 can be open for everybody, so males, T [email protected] and females as well if they wish.

It appears the word I’ve butchered isn’t allowed past the censors, despite it being the whole theme of the article

Sharon Overy
Sharon Overy
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The ‘men’s’ competition is already open. Apart from a couple of sports, there are no actual men’s categories – the various sports’ governing bodies’ rules don’t mention sex or gender. It’s only women’s sports that do so, for obvious reasons. The labelling of, for instance, the men’s 100 metres race, is simply for clarity at events.

So any claim from activists that transwomen would be denied the chance to compete in any sports if excluded from women’s sports is untrue.

I think the problem with the idea of transports, specifically, is the lack of numbers. The percentage of transpeople in the general population is a tad over 1%.

By the way, Ms Jackson’s reply suggests that she believes womanhood to be a matter of biology, not claimed identity.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
8 months ago
Reply to  Sharon Overy

It suggests no such thing. It demonstrates blatant dishonesty.

Sharon Overy
Sharon Overy
8 months ago

I mean that she’s Freudian-slipped.

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith
8 months ago
Reply to  Sharon Overy

Your estimation of the [email protected] population is at least two orders of magnitude high.

Z 0
Z 0
1 month ago
Reply to  Sharon Overy

Once gender identity is accepted as the criterion rather than biological sex, get ready for those who identify as non-binary, which should bring the numbers well above 1%, particularly among younger people.
Or if anybody can enter the trans Olympics by declaring that they are not cis, perhaps the competitors ranks can be swelled with progressive allies who wish to protest the cisheteropartiarchy by competing in the trans Olympics. Of course, few of them will be elite athletes, but at least trans people would have more people to compete with.
It’s already a thing in citizen foot races in the US. Non-binary folks have been allowed to have their own category, albeit a small one so far. Now some of that few are asking for the same prize money as the far larger male and female categories. Offering smaller prizes implies that nb people aren’t equally valid and valued, y’know, which could hurt their self esteem.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

The truth, that dare not sqeak it’s name.

Andrew McDonald
Andrew McDonald
8 months ago
Reply to  Tom Lewis

Shouldn’t that be T @ruth?

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

This is the obvious answer, but sadly there are too many feminists that are so “ideologically trapped” into the concept of female equality (or superiority) that they can’t make the leap into accepting what for them would be a demeaning categorisation.

Caroline Watson
Caroline Watson
8 months ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Nonsense. The obsession of men like you with feminism is facilitating this nonsense. Feminists are at the forefront of the opposition to ‘gender’ ideology. It you oppose it too, give us support.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
8 months ago

I’m not obsessed with feminists, trans-activists, or any other gender based groups.
I see focussing on gender differences (rather than equality) as deeply unhelpful in many circumstances, and my suggestion above is an attempt to highlight that those who do seem most obsessive about these things ought to move their thinking on – including being more outspoken on issues like this.
I would be interested in hearing why you perceive men who are obsessed about feminism to be the “facilitators of this nonsense”.

Last edited 8 months ago by Ian Barton
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

The men trying to link this to (radical it must be said) feminism are enabling this nonsense simply by muddying the argument and not lending their weight to the the trans problem that is an attack on all women. This is pure distraction. Sooo pleased that I am surrounded by men who are clear thinkers.

Abi Caffrey
Abi Caffrey
8 months ago
Reply to  Ian Barton

Ian I think you are wrong here, loads of Feminists are out loud and proud around this issue and similar conflicts the inclusion of trans women, paticuarly self id involve. I think your using this to have a dig at feminism. As a feminist I would say different therefore equal, I dont see that many people would have a problem with that. Many feminist feel their voices are being crowded out by a Mans right issue, a mans right to compete in female sports.

Ian Barton
Ian Barton
8 months ago
Reply to  Abi Caffrey

Thanks Abi – I have no problem with enlightened feminism at all – I just struggle with those extremists who seem to decry all males e.g. by suggesting no men should be allowed out after dark.
The situation in sport outlined here is clearly absurd and needs universal and loud criticism.
Hard to see it any sensible claim for it to be a man’s right, as that would surely be a profound non-sequitur …

Last edited 8 months ago by Ian Barton
William Murphy
William Murphy
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

We already have a far more convoluted system for categorising competitors in the Paralympics. That gives rise to a whole string of problems. Not least that there are multiple gold medals even for blue riband events like the 100 metres, which slightly dilutes the rarity value.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
8 months ago
Reply to  William Murphy

The problem of intact males competing in women’s events is, of course, not that they are disabled but that they are (because of their real sex) usually more able.
I have sometimes wondered why a special category of sporting events involving athletes that are allowed to take performance enhancing drugs is not established. It might stimulate research and development in such drugs that could be of more widespread use. After all the winner of F1 races is not necessarily the best driver but rather the best combination of driver and technology.

Andrew F
Andrew F
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

I remember reading interview many years ago with some famous Scandinavian runner.
He said that by taking performance enhancing drugs people like him only try to close the gap on athletes from Kenya and Ethiopia born at altitude.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeremy Bray

F1 is mostly about the car though. Who can remember the no hoper Russell using Hamilton’s car when he had Covid.

Malcolm Knott
Malcolm Knott
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

A very elegant solution, readily explained, eminently fair and politically feasible.

Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Try using accents on words like tráns to get past the automatic censor.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

This whole can of worms was opened by “group 1”
The reason you have a separate group to begin with is because females are inferior in physical strength and most sports (just like they, imho, make better teachers and doctors, because biology likes teamwork) and the horrible Western patriarchy thought they should enjoy sports and compete without being pushed out by biologically stronger makes.

But that would also mean that group 1 would be of a far lower standard (obviously, as otherwise you wouldn’t need it to begin with.)
Hence, lower television time, prize money etc

And we can’t have that with the lovely, pampered princesses in upper class western society can we?

So, we want to have a special group 1, but we also want to pretend there is no biological difference between group 1 and group 2 and anybody claiming so is a horrible, mean person. And of course, it never occurred to those ladies what happens if certain individuals in group 2 claim the same and use that to their benefit.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how we end up with today’s bizarre world.

Tom Scott
Tom Scott
8 months ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

Not really sure what the purpose of this response is?

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Tom Scott

Samir is beating his drum. Everything bad that happens in the world is because women didn’t want to be subjugated to men and wanted equal opportunity. This is no way suggests that all women think that men and women are the same.

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
8 months ago
Reply to  Tom Scott

To bring out the reason why his solution would not work and wind down to the same path.

If you do women a favour and make a separate group 1 for them, their response eventually would be the same as Lesley here – they would scream about how they are being “subjugated to men” and denied “equal opportunity”

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

I truly think you live in a bubble geographically and have never been exposed to a history book.

Abi Caffrey
Abi Caffrey
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

In total agreement with this. I first came across this idea in an article written by Debbie Haydon, a trans woman that gets a fair amount of abuse for being a biology realest.

Emily Riedel
Emily Riedel
8 months ago

I’m such a huge fan of Ayaan’s, but I feel like this article is operating under the assumption that there are reasonable people on both sides of this conflict, and that this issue has not devolved into a cult. Unfortunately, such is the religious fervor of trans activists that even this kind, fact based piece would result in hysterical calls of “TERF,” and “trans hate.”
What’s the solution then? In an ideal world, get everyone off social media, stat. Otherwise, how does one break up a cult? Not with kindness and logic, it seems.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Emily Riedel

There has to be a pushback and part of that pushback begins at the ballot box.

Andrew D
Andrew D
8 months ago

If we returned to the original Olympic ideal, with the participants naked, there would be no ambiguity about their ‘gender identity’.

Rasmus Fogh
Rasmus Fogh
8 months ago

The system for vetting posts (better not name it explicitly) is really beyond ridiculous. If you cannot use the words that are used in the article, how can you debate it properly? If there is no way of getting software that works for the Unherd editorial line, would that be a good subject for an article about institutional capture?

Andrea X
Andrea X
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

Yes, I have just tried to post something and it didn’t go through.
These are the things that make me question my membership.

Kasia Chapman
Kasia Chapman
8 months ago
Reply to  Andrea X

I don’t comment often but I read a lot of comments on various articles and I read many commentators complaining about censorship of algorithms. I would like to see Freddy to address this issue eg a post from him or better still a video message to explain and promise to do better. Otherwise, what he has built will crumble and that would be a great shame .

D Glover
D Glover
8 months ago
Reply to  Andrea X

I’ve asked, more than once, for a glossary of words that we are not allowed. This has not been forthcoming. We are expected to know, or guess.

Jeremy Bray
Jeremy Bray
8 months ago
Reply to  Rasmus Fogh

I have made repeated posts about this issue that have usually been well recommended and emailed Freddie direct with no response. I am sympathetic to Unherd over the issue but I do think it is one that should be addressed if only to explain the problem from their end otherwise it looks as if they are eager to support Guardian style suppression of posts which I doubt is their philosophical stance.

N Forster
N Forster
8 months ago

“I want to swim and compete as who I am,” Thomas said in a recent interview. 
“I want”
Thomas believes they have the right to get what they want.
None of us do.
My hope is that Thomas learns how to live in a world which is not in accordance with Thomas’ perceptions and preferences. That surely would be better than the rest of us having to join Thomas in the fiction that Thomas is female. 
And better for Thomas too, as learning to live in world not in accordance with our wishes, that doesn’t align with our perceptions, learning that we can’t always get what we want, learning that we don’t have the right to dictate to others are the hallmarks of the most important transition of all –
From child to adult.

Last edited 8 months ago by N Forster
N Forster
N Forster
8 months ago
Reply to  N Forster

I wrote this post as I thought my previous post had been deleted due to using the word “he” several times. I’m glad to say it was not. Turned out it was a bug in Unherds’ software.

Allison Barrows
Allison Barrows
8 months ago

All one needs do is look at the picture accompanying this article to know that he’s no she. I could just as easily identify as a 5’ 11” Brazilian supermodel named Eduardo. One quick glance at me and that would be the end of it. Male. Female. Science!

R Wright
R Wright
8 months ago

“Nobody chooses to undergo surgery or take body-altering medicine on a whim.” – you clearly lack experience with the post-Tumblr trans ecosystem. There are hundreds of Discord servers and Reddit subs right now where body altering medicines are known as ‘cutie pills’ and they post them to each other.

Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lennon Ó Náraigh
8 months ago

Like the author, I have no prejudice against men who wish to identify as women. I will use she/her when talking to, or about such individuals. But I will make certain exceptions: men serial killers and séx offenders, and men who cheat at sport.

Last edited 8 months ago by Lennon Ó Náraigh
Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago

I mostly agree because this is becoming a tr..s own goal and is creating a backlash. I also don’t believe in ‘self identification’ on a whim. There are far more opportunities for mischief – like jails, toilets, refuges. Men who might not have offended can wake up of a morning and declare themselves female.

Peter Dawson
Peter Dawson
8 months ago

And the law seems to support them – like a recent newspaper article about a hospital saying that one of the patients in the ward had raped another woman in there could not be true – as there were no men on the ward so it couldn’t be rape.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Peter Dawson

This is a truly shocking story.

Esther Barna
Esther Barna
8 months ago

The new woke patriarchy: men taking over both genders.

Mel Shaw
Mel Shaw
8 months ago

How can a lawyer not be prepared to define the term “woman”.

Dominic A
Dominic A
8 months ago
Reply to  Mel Shaw

Perhaps because that lawyer is not stupid enough to wade into a gotcha question whilst being aggressively interviewed by..ugh, whatever the GOP is these days.

Julian Farrows
Julian Farrows
8 months ago
Reply to  Dominic A

Not brave enough, you mean. A judge is supposed to uphold the truth and here she is too frightened too.

Last edited 8 months ago by Julian Farrows
Dominic A
Dominic A
8 months ago
Reply to  Julian Farrows

No, it’s clearly foolish to answer that question, on the cuff, with today’s twitter-storm reality, on TV, whilst being aggressively grilled during an interview. Bravery comes after the job interview – we’ll see then.

Warren T
Warren T
7 months ago
Reply to  Dominic A

LOL. Perhaps you have not witnessed any other SCOTUS hearing throughout history?

Peter Dawson
Peter Dawson
8 months ago
Reply to  Mel Shaw

She’s a woke liberal who has a record of giving paedophiles a lower sentence than the minimum defined in law. She’s WOKE man.

Dominic A
Dominic A
8 months ago

You’d think that the explosion in the use of the word & concept of gaslighting might make it harder for people to do it – obviously and in public.

“How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?’

‘Four.’

‘And if the party says that it is not four but five—then how many?’

‘Four.”

Martin Bollis
Martin Bollis
8 months ago

Most of the world doesn’t share the insane obsessions of the west.

As we move into a multipolar world, I hope to see supranational bodies like the Olympic committee putting a stop to this nonsense, at least at international level.

Last edited 8 months ago by Martin Bollis
jonathan carter-meggs
jonathan carter-meggs
8 months ago

The biology of sex is real.
Cosmetic appearance does not impact on biological sex.
It is impossible for a person conceived as one sex to “know” what it feels like to be the other sex, one can only “know” your own mind not that of another. You may wish to be treated as if you are the opposite sex. This treatment is not within your unilateral command.
Genitals should not be intermingled in any public arena.

Martin L
Martin L
8 months ago

From the comments am I right to deduce that if I use the word t [email protected] in its normal spelling then an algorithm will prevent my comment from being posted? If so, then this is just another example of the craziness of the modern world. As for the post itself, it has seemed to me for some while that the various sporting bodies from the IOC downwards have collectively bought in to the delusional thinking of gender identity ideologues wholesale because they are scared of the backlash that would flow from failing to do so. Nothing will really change until these organisations find the backbone to stand up to the bullies and find a more equitable solution.

Graff von Frankenheim
Graff von Frankenheim
8 months ago

I am all for a transgender Olympics, as long as it is called “Mental Illness Olympics” (find a cute abbreviation, like for example “Millympics” like the Paralympics). Pervolympics will also be acceptable.

Last edited 8 months ago by Graff von Frankenheim
Nicholas Rynn
Nicholas Rynn
8 months ago

I’ll start to consider his arguments once his male bits are removed. Until then he’s a man.

N Forster
N Forster
8 months ago
Reply to  Nicholas Rynn

And then he’ll be a male with his genitals removed. Still won’t be a woman.

Tom Lewis
Tom Lewis
8 months ago

Isn’t it time to stop, surely this joke is starting to wear a bit thin ? ‘You’ had a bit of a laugh, ‘you’ pushed it as far, and a whole lot further, as it might be pushed and still thought funny, but now it seems as if somebody, somewhere, is just taking the p !ss at everybody else’s expense.
Rather than a new category of competitor, we should just invent a new competitive sport called ‘Jumping through hoops’, it seems T [email protected] people, of either persuasion, and their allies, will be, undisputed, world champions. That way, everyone can go home, having won a prize.
P.S. What the hell NEEDS approval ??????????

Last edited 8 months ago by Tom Lewis
Andrzej Wasniewski
Andrzej Wasniewski
8 months ago

I did not know what is toxic masculinity until I heard about Thomas

Peter Dawson
Peter Dawson
8 months ago

“There is no such thing as half-support, either you back me fully as a woman or you don’t.”
This from someone who has not fully transitioned and has a completely male body – I don’t back him – he probably still has his prostate gland as well – at all and think it is a monstrous injustice to natural women.

Alan Osband
Alan Osband
8 months ago

’You don’t have to be a biologist to see something is amiss’
Not a miss! She isn’t even a ms.

Billy Bob
Billy Bob
8 months ago

I have an easier solution, simply rename the categories of competitors. The first category can be for biological women only, the second group can be called an open category which is open to everybody, male, trans, even females if they wish.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Billy Bob

Females who support this should be forced into the open category!

Drahcir Nevarc
Drahcir Nevarc
8 months ago

Judging by the photo, he really needs to get back into his Speedos.

Francisco Menezes
Francisco Menezes
8 months ago

If Lia is still intactus/intacta/intactum would RuPaul’s Dragrace not be a better sport? Or a the anual DC Highheel Race?

Andrew Lale
Andrew Lale
8 months ago

“There is no such thing as half-support, either you back me fully as a woman or you don’t.” I don’t.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
8 months ago

[email protected] 1 Feminists 0.
Can the Feminists fight back to equality?

Samir Iker
Samir Iker
8 months ago
Reply to  Chris Wheatley

The problem is the feminist concept of equality is there are no biological differences, women are no different from men, and male footballers or basketball players earning more than their female counterparts is “sexism”

Linda Hutchinson
Linda Hutchinson
8 months ago
Reply to  Samir Iker

This is not a feminist concept; this is the extreme outliers who,unfortunately, get all the publcity. I suspect that it might well be the same for transexual people, those who a few years ago transitioned completely just got on with their lives, those who just dressed as women where termed transvestites.

Mike Wylde
Mike Wylde
8 months ago

There wouldn’t be enough athletes to have a separete series of races. The overall percentage is low and the number within that who are athletes is even lower.

Warren T
Warren T
7 months ago

One needs to only read this quote to understand the sheer lunacy:
Lia walks around the women’s locker room exposed, making teammates feel uncomfortable. “It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,” she explained.

Andrzej Wasniewski
Andrzej Wasniewski
8 months ago

Call it what it is, 0.1% Olympics, and let’s make sure that competition is televised all over the world, and watching it is mandatory, particularly for children 1-5 years old. It is the only way we can assure full equality of trans.

Martin Johnson
Martin Johnson
8 months ago

This is all so ridiculous.
About 20 years ago, we (I am in the US) pretty much threw up our hands trying to classify people by race and ethnicity, and let everyone “self-identify.” Most day-to-day implications of one’s “race” or ethnicity are socially constructed and little is biological other than some unimportant external features and some inherited medical tendencies. How we socially define “race” is quite arbitrary and at some variance to how ethnologist define populations, and as socially defined groups come from many widely separated areas. An Anatolian, a Punjabi, a Cambodian, a Uighur, a Han Chinese, and an Ainu are all Asian, and what do they have in common? In America, a Black may be descended from US slaves, who may have come from the West African Slave Coast, or from much farther South around Angola; or may have come voluntarily from the Caribbean since about 1965, or come from Nigeria or Ethiopia, again voluntarily, in the 1980s. What do THEY have in common? And so on for other large and almost meaninglessly arbitrary recognized groups. Add intermarriage and there is an almost infinite range of gradations.
Rather than go down the path of the Nazi Nuremberg Laws, we just said we would let people self-identify for most purposes. Notably this tended not to be the case for things that mattered, like medical care involving diseases with distinct differences across populations, or for purposes of Native Americans where there was a historically rooted system of tribes and tribal affiliation which defined one’s status within a tribe, and the status of one’s ancestors, making classification possible. But for the most part, we went to self-identification because there were no clear answers and the financial and psychological cost of doing more outweighed any benefit
None of this applies to trans. In that area, reality is very clear–humans are HIGHLY sexually dimorphic. While there is overlap, there are very clear differences in the distributions of weight, height, aggressiveness, muscle mass, upper body strength, and a host of other objectively measurable factors that in certain situations are very important–sports being one, and situations where females are at potential physical risk (in shelters, prisons, etc.) are another. In short, the rationale for self-identification by race or ethnicity does not apply to trans. Men and women can easily be differentiated except in a trivial percentage of peculiar circumstances. The differences between men and women are easily defined and are of real consequence in some domains, and to insist on self-identification IN THOSE DOMAINS is simply lunatic, and in several domains is to the disadvantage of the sex that tends to be smaller, less strong, and less physically aggressive. This is not just crazy, it is morally wrong. People understand all this intuitively, and they are correct.
For sports, the answer could be simple: two classes of competition: “Open,” in which anyone is allowed to compete, and “Women,” limited to people who are clearly and unambiguously female (XX chromosomes, appropriate ratio of natural estrogen to testosterone).”Open” may be dominated by males, but women and trans are eligible to compete there on the same basis as biological men. Any trans person is welcome to compete in the Open class, but in order to compete as Women they have to meet the strict definitions that apply to that category. Same as anyone else.
Things like prisons and shelters could be approached in a similar fashion.
This need not be rocket science, it is not all that complicated.

Last edited 8 months ago by Martin Johnson
Christopher Hodgkinson
Christopher Hodgkinson
8 months ago

It’s taken a long time for people to wake up to the fact that it is completely unreasonable for women to compete against men in most sports. A Trans Olympics, of course and all the way down the sports chain. Let common sense rule for a change. Chris

Michael O'Donnell
Michael O'Donnell
8 months ago

What I fail to understand is how, in a free and democratic society, such a tiny number of people appears to be holding sway over the majority who would disagree with them. Shouldn’t we all just ignore them? Allow them freedom within societal limits, but otherwise forget them.

Sheryl Rhodes
Sheryl Rhodes
7 months ago

You know what’s ironic? If we had a league for trans athletes, there would be immediate problems with identifying who, exactly, can claim to be trans? Men who have taken X amount of estrogen would refuse to compete with men who have done absolutely nothing to be come “trans” other than to announce one day that they are actually women.

Patrick Butler
Patrick Butler
8 months ago

In suggesting that men who have become legally female will accept anything less than absolutely full womanhood without any asterisks (which they call “othering”), the proposal of this usually sophisticated person is way wide of the mark. The YouTube video “I just want to pee” vividly makes this point. Here’s the link: (140) I Just Want To Pee – YouTube

William Murphy
William Murphy
8 months ago

I look forward to Dame Edna Everedge’s wise advice in this area, seeing that she has already been the target of cruel smears that she may not be 100% kosher in the pelvic region. But her dear friend Barry has already got himself in trouble by speaking too freely on transgender politics, so she may well exercise discretion.

https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2019/4/16/dame-edna-comedy-award-be-renamed-after-transphobic-comments

Jürg Gassmann
Jürg Gassmann
8 months ago

It could be an event at the Paralympics…

R Wright
R Wright
7 months ago
Reply to  Jürg Gassmann

Eunuchs are disabled I suppose.

ARNAUD ALMARIC
ARNAUD ALMARIC
8 months ago

This problem is easily solved if we return to the practices of the Ancient Greeks.
All male sports were conducted Gymnos or naked. This included the great Panhellenic Games such as the Olympic Games.
Spartan woman also seem to have competed naked, notably in the wrestling, but it seems other Greek women were more modest.

Drahcir Nevarc
Drahcir Nevarc
8 months ago

“Such is the outrage that Governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis, has been forced to wade in; this week, he signed a proclamation declaring the “rightful winner” of the race to be Emma Weyant, who came in second.”
I do hope DeSantis runs for the Republicans.

Christopher Hodgkinson
Christopher Hodgkinson
8 months ago

ABSOLUTELY, form a TRANS section where the minimal number can showcase their abilities. Long overdue.

Art Johnston
Art Johnston
8 months ago

This is a test. Is the word trans or Trans being censored?

Art Johnston
Art Johnston
8 months ago
Reply to  Art Johnston

No, “trans” or “Trans” is not being censored.

Last edited 8 months ago by Art Johnston
Aldo Maccione
Aldo Maccione
8 months ago

I find it baffling that transwomen don’t realize that by helping blur what a woman is, or isn’t, they are contributing to destroy the essence of what they’re trying to become.

John Riordan
John Riordan
7 months ago

“Do we need a Trans Olympics?”
No, we don’t. The reason is simple: male-at-birth transwomen retain virtually all their physical strength and stamina, and so it is fair that they simply compete as men.

Chris Wheatley
Chris Wheatley
8 months ago

Transisters 1 – Feminists 0.

Saul D
Saul D
8 months ago

.

Last edited 8 months ago by Saul D
James Pence
James Pence
7 months ago

Creating a third division — a Trans Division — seems to me the best way out of this mess and the only way to not hurt actual biological females who want to compete against one another on an equal playing field. Otherwise it’s unfair to women.

Melissa Martin
Melissa Martin
3 months ago

America has gone from putting a man on the moon to putting a man in a woman’s swimming costume.

Penny Adrian
Penny Adrian
8 months ago

The vast majority of trans people, ESPECIALLY trans women, do not care about sports!
Why is this being treated as a serious issue?
If genetically female athletes don’t have the backbone to stand up for themselves against this blatant unfairness, then that is their problem and they don’t deserve to win any sporting competitions.
I am so tired of this cowardice when it comes to “trans rights” and I am so tired of trivial issues like sports being taken so seriously.

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Sport is not trivial in any way.

ARNAUD ALMARIC
ARNAUD ALMARIC
8 months ago

Agreed not trivial but decidedly boring! Particularly in comparison with the great days of Ancient Rome.
Can anything today compare with the “roar of the crowd” watching Gladiatorial Games in the fifty thousand seater Flavian Amphitheater (Colosseum)?
Or has even Formula One anything to offer to rival the two hundred and fifty thousand seater Circus Maximus and its epic Chariot Races?*

(*The 1959 film ‘Ben-Hur’ has a very passable attempt at a reconstruction of this.)

Lesley van Reenen
Lesley van Reenen
8 months ago
Reply to  ARNAUD ALMARIC

I watched Ben-Hur and I’m afraid besides Charlton Heston looking good, blood sports don’t appeal to me. I love sport though.

ARNAUD ALMARIC
ARNAUD ALMARIC
8 months ago

Jack Hawkins was also very good. Do you recall his famous line “Your eyes are full of hate 41, that’s good, hate keeps a man alive”.*

(*The Galley scene.)

Dominic A
Dominic A
8 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

I’m not a big sports fan, to put it mildly. but even I can see that Sports is monumentally important in comparison with Lia Thomas’s feelings.

I do have some sympathy with your frustration….however, to actually answer why it is being taken as a serious issue:

  • Aggressive overreach by activists – people being harassed, sacked, muzzled, whilst the authorities, editors, professors, police etc stand by and even facilitate what they actually know to be wrong (there’s your cowardice)
  • it’s connections to a generation of Orwellian befuddlement in education – inverse racism, ‘silence is violence’, absolute prohibition on using certain words and concepts, no matter the context or speaker’s intention
  • the ironic cultural cancellation of women (e.g. in a major UK maternity hospital, pregnant women are to be called, ‘birthing people’
  • and how that applies in practice – women athletes being toppled by biological men; women & girls in changing rooms, saunas etc having to put up with women with penises walking around, etc women raped in prison, hospital settings by err, ‘women with penises’
  • the takeover of LGQBT by T
  • the fact that all of this hoo-ha is acting as a recruiting sargeant for extreme left and right wing groups, whose growth in threatening civil society, democracy (in the USA & coming to a country near you)

And, to be fair, no doubt, there is also a lot of prejudice, and cultural growing pains as people try to get their head around the weird and wonderful realities of sexual & gender diversity. Patience is the thing, along with persistent, open and honest dialogue & advocacy. Many trans activists are to the Trans cause what Putin actually is to the Russian cause.

John Riordan
John Riordan
7 months ago
Reply to  Penny Adrian

Perhaps you might show us all how it’s done? Standing up to the trans-rights agenda without your life and career being ruined as a consequence, that is.