I shouldn’t be surprised but I am nonetheless disheartened by the fact that a well thoughtout article about how women are being erased and denied their private spaces, written by a woman who lost her job by stating the obvious was dominated by men complaning the she used the term incel (‘young man who appeared to be an incel’) who, incidentally, killed 2 women, two men and a 2 yearl girl.
My personal journey from labour voter to “far right” was to a large extent prompted by feminists relentlessly defending the ethnic minority mainly responsible terror attacks or grooming gangs with the excuse “not all XYZ do it”
So, no you can’t have it both ways, and one man claiming to be an “incel” and commiting a horrid act does not give you the license to use that label as a pejorative against all men.
And as for losing her job, that’s the outcome of decades of people losing their jobs for wrongthink thanks to “victim groups”
And turns out, now there is none left to speak for you.
JR Stoker
2 years ago
City Hall is a pointless and dangerous institution; everything it is responsible for is a mess; it is mired in stupidity and incompetence.
Time to do what was done before to solve this problem; abolish it
John Lee
2 years ago
Mohamed Khan has no respect for women. That is part of his culture.
Doesn’t take much round these parts. I’ve been censored numerous times by this Cucked, shitshow of a website. They’ve got no problem with their readers being ‘unherd’.
Who is Mohamed Khan and what is his relevance to this article?
David Batlle
2 years ago
Question. If trans women are women, then why do you have to call them “trans” women.
Terence Fitch
2 years ago
The ironies are delicious. That said, I’m not sure this is causing tears of rage and handwringing in Nuneaton, Ilminster or Market Bosworth etc.
William Shaw
2 years ago
In the UK there are around 4,000 refuges for women and only 22 for men despite, as Erin Pizzey documented back in the 1970’s, domestic violence perpetrated by women against men is as common as it is men against women, so a lot of men obviously need somewhere to go.
Domestic violence incidents of women on men may be as common but they are not as grave in the level of violence perpetrated and in the consequences. There may well be a case that male victims of domestic violence are not probably supported, but making this a cause worthy of support is not helped by pretending that as many men are murdered by partners as are women.
Nonsense.
One third of deaths from domestic violence are men.
And you also ignore the fact that DV victims (male or female) most typically are subject to constant, repeated low level violence..or that men are rendered unable to retaliate or walk away because the law would always take their wife’s side, and soon his children to staying with an abusive mother.
The other interesting but us how men are the “strong” sex when convenient, but otherwise we are expected to believe women are equally strong physically when it comes to sports, military or how they are depicted in media.
“… we are expected to believe women are equally strong physically when it comes to sports, military or how they are depicted in media.”
This is an interesting point. Perhaps the impression in the messaging is dictated by a Butlerian gender ideological position – that women are to be regarded as de facto men? Could the corollary of this be that, in turn guided by that same ideology, men should be regarded as de facto women?
What you’re saying may well be true, but I was addressing a particular quote from Ms Linden. In addition, I’m sure that you’re not advocating forcing abused men and women in the same facilities.
Yes there should be more refuges for male victims of domestic abuse. However, to say domestic abuse against men is as common as against women (even taking into account lack of reporting the crime) is patently wrong. The large majority of defendants in domestic abuse-related prosecutions in the year ending March 2020 were recorded as male (92%) and the majority of the victims recorded as female (77%, compared with compared with 16% who were male). The sex of the victim was not recorded in 7% of prosecutions.
I think the general rule is that domestic abuse becomes domestic violence when the victim feels threat to life. So the women and men who are downtrodden and may have a history of violence against them prior to a relationship, may not acknowledge the threat to life as they are often in a coercive control situation, like Stockhausen syndrome. Having said that, the figures are quoted on Women’s Aid website and I am no expert.
Thanks for the reply. My point was that the comment you were replying to was referencing domestic violence whereas your stats reference domestic abuse-related incidents. I was wondering whether the comparison between abuse and violence is a valid correlation/conflation when stats are involved.
Probably, there is always more ‘shame’ associated with a man suffering abuse.
Lesley van Reenen
2 years ago
I’ve not been online much today, but checking in here I find that I’ve had two of my comments removed from the two threads I’ve checked. This thread in particular has seen a lot of censorship for apparently little reason.
I posted in support of the author, so will be contacting Unherd to find out who on earth has been creating havoc today.
Nothing new. I’ve been censored numerous times by them. My subscription finishes soon with these Cuckservative shills, then they’ll be getting the boot.
Christopher Barclay
2 years ago
Khan had no interest in the views of women who are not Labour members. His views on women’s rights are shaped by his ambition to win the Labour leadership.
I am mystified as to why asking why women have not left the Labour Party has received downvotes. Am I being punished for asking a question some believe should never be asked?
R Wright
2 years ago
In regards to your point on the census, trans activists have form doing that. The infamous US Transgender Survey relied on by policymakers allows one to take the survey as many as one wants, promises a prize for taking it and allows non-US ip addresses to take it. I.e. it is intentionally methodologically flawed to make the trans population look triple what it actually is. Expect similar insanity here.
As Suedonym puts it, “The survey, which is incredibly flawed, has been cited numerous times by other associated transgender lobby organizations — the Human Rights Campaign, the Transgender Law Center, the National LGBTQ Task Force, a litany of other lobby groups and the Democratic Party, all groups that use its statistics as crucial evidence for their argument that transgender people are the most oppressed minority in America.”
Perhaps the issue is really about how the term “woman” is being used? Khan is using the term “woman” in the gender identity sense, and using that gender meaning as the basis for his stance.
Those who are interested in protecting women-only refuges are therefore at a disadvantage when dealing with the rhetorical strategic redefinition, because Khan has divorced “woman” from its common, codified meaning as “adult human female”.
In my view, perhaps the way to counter such a strategy is to call the refuges female-only refuges. That explicitly links access to such spaces based on the criterion of sex, not some arguable meaning from gender ideology.
At the end of the day, as I see it, these spaces have to be based on sex, because lawful access to those spaces is governed how the law defines sex – that is, sex is biological and transgenderism is psychological (Corbett v Corbett).
For those who hold a GRC, that lawful access would have to be made on a case by case basis.
Last edited 2 years ago by michael stanwick
R Wright
2 years ago
I’d feel pity for the author’s situation if they weren’t a misandrist that calls young men ‘incels’ and expects to get away with it without criticism
If I understand it correctly, the status of being an “incel” is involuntary, so surely they do not deserve the “default hate” status that is dished out by others.
People who describe/identity themselves as incels are presumably just that.
I would call them people – as I would anyone else.
It is the act of constantly dividing and sub-diving people into silos that causes all this sh1te.
The author effectively identifies being an involuntary celibate (incel) with being a mass shooter. She is actively working to demonise a group of men. I did post another comment but it has not appeared. I think it was because I used the acronym for trans exclusionary radical feminist – not in a derogatory fashion. The author has contributed to making the term incel a far worse slur but it is not banned.
Thanks for explaining what ‘incel’ means. I have never heard the term &, quite frankly, don’t care if I never hear it again! All these new titles for everything is ridiculous. As others have said, a person is a person!
I agree with all you have said about people being people and not being put into little labelled boxes, but as Billy Bob says they refer to themselves as “incels”, knowing all the baggage that comes with that designation, rather than “bachelors” or “unattached”. They may, indeed, be involuntaerily celibate (as are many women, of course), and it may be that originally the term was just meant as a discriptor, and the community was to give help to those wanting to navigate the treacherous waters of “dating”, but it seems to have morphed into something else, something from which any self-respecting youngman might consider distancing himself.
I’m uncomfortable with the suggested concept of “passive morphing”.
Some people “actively” decided to turn it into a term of abuse.
On that basis, I’d suggest that those people who pervert terms such as these ought to change their behaviours – rather than their victims having to do so.
Was it tuned into a term of abuse or did the “community” morph into something else, or, to use the active tense, did some in the “community” turn it into something else? That is an actual question, I don’t know the answer as I’ve never visited the sites. I have, however, seen some rather unpleasant statements from some who call themselves “incels”, who could be a tiny minority, of course.
I doubt that all incels joined any specific “community” – in the same way as all truck drivers in the Canadian Freedom Convoy won’t have joined a community of “far-right anti-vaxers”.
As you seem to suggest, it’s convenient for some haters to label all apples as bad – if one or two are found to be rotten.
No-one really thinks incels all commit crimes, but a few do. I think it is an important descriptor especially as incels own the term.
There are lots of terms, some more derogatory than others… cougars is a term used for women who are in a relationship with a younger man. I find it descriptive and amusing.
Too much wokedom…. Nah.
Completely agree. Maybe UnHerd could just put up the usual warning and disclaimer by the flagged comments rather than deleting them, or at least explain why they have been deleted.
I would also appreciate the upvotes and the downvotes being separated. I have looked from time to time and my overall score generally remains negative but there is variation so some upvotes must be neutralising (cancelling 🙂 ) some of the downvotes.
Pots, kettles, bl@ck.. Peoples Front of Judaea v the Judaean Peoples Front. Hoist by your own petard. Sit back with the popcorn. Schadenfreude. You sow what you reap. Never saw this coming. Smug – not me..
F Mcallister
2 years ago
The Left eating their own. I’ve got no dog in this race. My feet are up and the popcorn bag is open.
Let the entertainment begin!
guadalv
2 years ago
I have a theory. I could be completely wrong and would prefer to be. I think it is women who are disliking my posts because (from my experience) they prefer badmouthing people behind their backs rather than confronting them.
True. Though I am very interested in the innate component of human behaviour and I do think that group wise there are identifiable differences between the sexes which is not to say any member is typical. I think human nature is a constant. I think great literature recognises and identifies these constants which is why it is has remained relevant throughout the centuries and across cultures. I think there are negative behaviours associated with females and positives.
I absolutely agree that there are negative and positive behaviours associated with females, just as there are with males; all I’m aying is that it is often difficult to determine what is a general female(or male) characteristic merely from one’s own experiences, as I believe most of us move in very restrictive circles.
I shouldn’t be surprised but I am nonetheless disheartened by the fact that a well thoughtout article about how women are being erased and denied their private spaces, written by a woman who lost her job by stating the obvious was dominated by men complaning the she used the term incel (‘young man who appeared to be an incel’) who, incidentally, killed 2 women, two men and a 2 yearl girl.
I am really disheartened by your sexist comment.
Yes that is quite depressing.
My personal journey from labour voter to “far right” was to a large extent prompted by feminists relentlessly defending the ethnic minority mainly responsible terror attacks or grooming gangs with the excuse “not all XYZ do it”
So, no you can’t have it both ways, and one man claiming to be an “incel” and commiting a horrid act does not give you the license to use that label as a pejorative against all men.
And as for losing her job, that’s the outcome of decades of people losing their jobs for wrongthink thanks to “victim groups”
And turns out, now there is none left to speak for you.
City Hall is a pointless and dangerous institution; everything it is responsible for is a mess; it is mired in stupidity and incompetence.
Time to do what was done before to solve this problem; abolish it
Mohamed Khan has no respect for women. That is part of his culture.
Hey – I said that and got moderated!!!!!
Doesn’t take much round these parts. I’ve been censored numerous times by this Cucked, shitshow of a website. They’ve got no problem with their readers being ‘unherd’.
Who is Mohamed Khan and what is his relevance to this article?
Question. If trans women are women, then why do you have to call them “trans” women.
The ironies are delicious. That said, I’m not sure this is causing tears of rage and handwringing in Nuneaton, Ilminster or Market Bosworth etc.
In the UK there are around 4,000 refuges for women and only 22 for men despite, as Erin Pizzey documented back in the 1970’s, domestic violence perpetrated by women against men is as common as it is men against women, so a lot of men obviously need somewhere to go.
Domestic violence incidents of women on men may be as common but they are not as grave in the level of violence perpetrated and in the consequences. There may well be a case that male victims of domestic violence are not probably supported, but making this a cause worthy of support is not helped by pretending that as many men are murdered by partners as are women.
Nonsense.
One third of deaths from domestic violence are men.
And you also ignore the fact that DV victims (male or female) most typically are subject to constant, repeated low level violence..or that men are rendered unable to retaliate or walk away because the law would always take their wife’s side, and soon his children to staying with an abusive mother.
The other interesting but us how men are the “strong” sex when convenient, but otherwise we are expected to believe women are equally strong physically when it comes to sports, military or how they are depicted in media.
“… we are expected to believe women are equally strong physically when it comes to sports, military or how they are depicted in media.”
This is an interesting point. Perhaps the impression in the messaging is dictated by a Butlerian gender ideological position – that women are to be regarded as de facto men? Could the corollary of this be that, in turn guided by that same ideology, men should be regarded as de facto women?
What you’re saying may well be true, but I was addressing a particular quote from Ms Linden. In addition, I’m sure that you’re not advocating forcing abused men and women in the same facilities.
Yes there should be more refuges for male victims of domestic abuse. However, to say domestic abuse against men is as common as against women (even taking into account lack of reporting the crime) is patently wrong. The large majority of defendants in domestic abuse-related prosecutions in the year ending March 2020 were recorded as male (92%) and the majority of the victims recorded as female (77%, compared with compared with 16% who were male). The sex of the victim was not recorded in 7% of prosecutions.
Is there a difference in law between domestic abuse and domestic violence?
I think the general rule is that domestic abuse becomes domestic violence when the victim feels threat to life. So the women and men who are downtrodden and may have a history of violence against them prior to a relationship, may not acknowledge the threat to life as they are often in a coercive control situation, like Stockhausen syndrome. Having said that, the figures are quoted on Women’s Aid website and I am no expert.
Thanks for the reply. My point was that the comment you were replying to was referencing domestic violence whereas your stats reference domestic abuse-related incidents. I was wondering whether the comparison between abuse and violence is a valid correlation/conflation when stats are involved.
I bet most violence against men is not reported though
Probably, there is always more ‘shame’ associated with a man suffering abuse.
I’ve not been online much today, but checking in here I find that I’ve had two of my comments removed from the two threads I’ve checked. This thread in particular has seen a lot of censorship for apparently little reason.
I posted in support of the author, so will be contacting Unherd to find out who on earth has been creating havoc today.
Nothing new. I’ve been censored numerous times by them. My subscription finishes soon with these Cuckservative shills, then they’ll be getting the boot.
Khan had no interest in the views of women who are not Labour members. His views on women’s rights are shaped by his ambition to win the Labour leadership.
And not even all of them, I know women who are still members of the Labour Party who are not on board with Mr Khan’s agenda
Genuine question – Why are they members of the Labour Party?
I am mystified as to why asking why women have not left the Labour Party has received downvotes. Am I being punished for asking a question some believe should never be asked?
In regards to your point on the census, trans activists have form doing that. The infamous US Transgender Survey relied on by policymakers allows one to take the survey as many as one wants, promises a prize for taking it and allows non-US ip addresses to take it. I.e. it is intentionally methodologically flawed to make the trans population look triple what it actually is. Expect similar insanity here.
As Suedonym puts it, “The survey, which is incredibly flawed, has been cited numerous times by other associated transgender lobby organizations — the Human Rights Campaign, the Transgender Law Center, the National LGBTQ Task Force, a litany of other lobby groups and the Democratic Party, all groups that use its statistics as crucial evidence for their argument that transgender people are the most oppressed minority in America.”
https://suedonym.substack.com/p/inauthentic-selves-the-modern-lgbtq
Perhaps the issue is really about how the term “woman” is being used? Khan is using the term “woman” in the gender identity sense, and using that gender meaning as the basis for his stance.
Those who are interested in protecting women-only refuges are therefore at a disadvantage when dealing with the rhetorical strategic redefinition, because Khan has divorced “woman” from its common, codified meaning as “adult human female”.
In my view, perhaps the way to counter such a strategy is to call the refuges female-only refuges. That explicitly links access to such spaces based on the criterion of sex, not some arguable meaning from gender ideology.
At the end of the day, as I see it, these spaces have to be based on sex, because lawful access to those spaces is governed how the law defines sex – that is, sex is biological and transgenderism is psychological (Corbett v Corbett).
For those who hold a GRC, that lawful access would have to be made on a case by case basis.
I’d feel pity for the author’s situation if they weren’t a misandrist that calls young men ‘incels’ and expects to get away with it without criticism
Some young men are incels though, and identify as such. What would you call these people?
If I understand it correctly, the status of being an “incel” is involuntary, so surely they do not deserve the “default hate” status that is dished out by others.
People who describe/identity themselves as incels are presumably just that.
I would call them people – as I would anyone else.
It is the act of constantly dividing and sub-diving people into silos that causes all this sh1te.
The author effectively identifies being an involuntary celibate (incel) with being a mass shooter. She is actively working to demonise a group of men. I did post another comment but it has not appeared. I think it was because I used the acronym for trans exclusionary radical feminist – not in a derogatory fashion. The author has contributed to making the term incel a far worse slur but it is not banned.
Thanks for explaining what ‘incel’ means. I have never heard the term &, quite frankly, don’t care if I never hear it again! All these new titles for everything is ridiculous. As others have said, a person is a person!
I agree with all you have said about people being people and not being put into little labelled boxes, but as Billy Bob says they refer to themselves as “incels”, knowing all the baggage that comes with that designation, rather than “bachelors” or “unattached”. They may, indeed, be involuntaerily celibate (as are many women, of course), and it may be that originally the term was just meant as a discriptor, and the community was to give help to those wanting to navigate the treacherous waters of “dating”, but it seems to have morphed into something else, something from which any self-respecting youngman might consider distancing himself.
I’m uncomfortable with the suggested concept of “passive morphing”.
Some people “actively” decided to turn it into a term of abuse.
On that basis, I’d suggest that those people who pervert terms such as these ought to change their behaviours – rather than their victims having to do so.
Was it tuned into a term of abuse or did the “community” morph into something else, or, to use the active tense, did some in the “community” turn it into something else? That is an actual question, I don’t know the answer as I’ve never visited the sites. I have, however, seen some rather unpleasant statements from some who call themselves “incels”, who could be a tiny minority, of course.
I doubt that all incels joined any specific “community” – in the same way as all truck drivers in the Canadian Freedom Convoy won’t have joined a community of “far-right anti-vaxers”.
As you seem to suggest, it’s convenient for some haters to label all apples as bad – if one or two are found to be rotten.
No-one really thinks incels all commit crimes, but a few do. I think it is an important descriptor especially as incels own the term.
There are lots of terms, some more derogatory than others… cougars is a term used for women who are in a relationship with a younger man. I find it descriptive and amusing.
Too much wokedom…. Nah.
Incels and Terfs… both slurs. Slurs of equal magnitude.
Ban both or neither, but be consistent.
Some people call themselves ‘incels’. Nobody call themselves ‘TERFs’.
And terf was not originally a slur, just a descriptive.
i think this is the article you refering too
https://thecritic.co.uk/fair-play-for-women-loses-census-appeal/
And could it be the author objects to trans women in women’s refuges because she is a misandrist.
What happened to the earlier comments? From the ‘enraged’ Linda Hutchison for example?
Damn… what did I miss when I was on the beach?
A whole lot of immoderate moderation, perhaps?
Completely agree. Maybe UnHerd could just put up the usual warning and disclaimer by the flagged comments rather than deleting them, or at least explain why they have been deleted.
I would also appreciate the upvotes and the downvotes being separated. I have looked from time to time and my overall score generally remains negative but there is variation so some upvotes must be neutralising (cancelling 🙂 ) some of the downvotes.
Maybe they could offer a premium subscription that unlocks all the enraged, “offensive” comments.
I for one would happily pay up for that.
If trans women are women, then why do we call them “trans” women.
would ‘ding dongs’ be an alternative?
Pots, kettles, bl@ck..
Peoples Front of Judaea v the Judaean Peoples Front.
Hoist by your own petard.
Sit back with the popcorn.
Schadenfreude.
You sow what you reap.
Never saw this coming.
Smug – not me..
The Left eating their own. I’ve got no dog in this race. My feet are up and the popcorn bag is open.
Let the entertainment begin!
I have a theory. I could be completely wrong and would prefer to be. I think it is women who are disliking my posts because (from my experience) they prefer badmouthing people behind their backs rather than confronting them.
That is interesting. I too worked in a male dominated area and must have been very fortunate because I did not share your experience.
Just goes to show, we can’t generalise from our own experiences.
True. Though I am very interested in the innate component of human behaviour and I do think that group wise there are identifiable differences between the sexes which is not to say any member is typical. I think human nature is a constant. I think great literature recognises and identifies these constants which is why it is has remained relevant throughout the centuries and across cultures. I think there are negative behaviours associated with females and positives.
I absolutely agree that there are negative and positive behaviours associated with females, just as there are with males; all I’m aying is that it is often difficult to determine what is a general female(or male) characteristic merely from one’s own experiences, as I believe most of us move in very restrictive circles.