Funny this article should come up. I just tried and failed to have a discussion last night. Or should I say, I was having a discussion with one person, quite cordially, when I was interrupted by a third who mentioned that I should not hold X, Y and Z views because I’m a white cis-gendered male, blah blah blah.
I gave some push back with why I believed Critical Race Theory (among other CTs) on which this lady’s views were based, conflated correlation with causation, not no mention being built on biological essentialism (ie itself racism).
After putting my case forward, she complained that I was ‘weaponising logic’ and “intellectualising” race and gender, while she, in contrast, “lived these issues as her reality”.
So, in short, as appears to be typical, such ideologues advance what they believe is an “intellectual” position. When you then respond in kind with your own counter position to this “intellectualism”, they then respond by falling back on their “lived experience” card. Criticism of their point of view is taken as proof that their point of view is correct in an extraordinary circular way.
I was told that we needed to have this “difficult conversation”, but every time she (and others) have said this, I have instead got the impression that what they really mean is that I must comply with their world view or they’ll cut me out of their lives.
Here’s hoping the rest of my “difficult Christmas conversations” go better than this last one did.
it has got to the sad state of affairs where many once strong friendships are cracking under the strain of the culture wars. People who once saw me as a human being now see me as a blind instantiation of an enemy group, holding views to advance the power of that group at their personal expense. Bringing a child up in this kind of environment leaves me feeling rather cold.
It’s even worse when it’s family. Finding them seeing you as “as a blind instantiation of an enemy group” is bad enough. Realising that the vitriol is returned is a horrifying self reflection.
I presume this is a US experience. I would regard anyone who placed any general significance on anyone’s skin colour as mentally unbalanced. Lived experience is simply something filtered through one’s own biased lense. Fortunately, I can’t remember any Christmas gathering I have been at where the issue has arisen. I suppose if I had I would not engage with them just as you would seek to humour any lunatic suffering from some monomania.
We have had a couple we are friendly with from Nigeria round for New Year’s Eve for a number of years. She is a social worker so I presume is surrounded by colleagues who have been indoctrinated with CRT but the subject has never come up. They seem perfectly sane on subjects that we have discussed so I just presume as a Nigerian she is unlikely to be taken in by this US originated lunacy that appears to be creeping in over here. Although my sons are at University they seem untainted by the madness.
While I think CRT teaching should be banned in UK institutions I have not come across any adherents socially and would be disinclined to attempt to alter such a bigot’s views in a social setting if I did.
She’s clearly just a racist. Tell her to do one. Also, I have a rule in my household that guests, lodgers, and lodgers’ guests are not allowed to interrupt me when I’m speaking.
When you get trapped in the circular fallback of ‘lived experience’, try pointing out that it’s unfalsifiable. At first she will think that unfalsifiability proves her ideology (as all ideologues do) but you can then point out that the only way a theory can be validated is to hunt for exceptions to its explanatory value and try to account for them. The exceptions will either be accountable or they will disprove the theory. If she wants a sound theory, she needs to provide answers to its apparent holes. If she is unwilling she has to accept she’s not interested in truth finding, but only in blind feeling. She also needs to understand that apparent unfalsifiability isn’t an asset but a great big red flag.
Judy you are essentially repeating verbatim what I said to her, at which point she claimed that my reasoning, rooted in patriarchal racial supremacist thinking, was itself oppressive, thereby making it invalid as a mode of rebuttal.
Of course, being an adherent of CRT, the only thing that mattered in her eyes was who was making the argument, not what the argument contained.
And, she was, no less, a graduate of Oxford.
Yes, challenging for many first year undergraduates (I remember the hunt for complete explanations well) but they should be trained how to think before they even consider having an opinion. Unfortunately that approach appears to be long gone as they don’t believe it’s possible to adopt a critical standpoint outside the accident of birth. For them, being critical means starting with the premise that there is no universal reason, only the standpoints of the marginalised which should be used to upend the supposedly self-serving standpoints of the ‘privileged’. That’s what criticism is for them. As usual, a word has been hijacked to mean the opposite of its original definition: not checking your theory in a state of healthy doubt, but doubling down on ideology from a position of radical activism.
I know this comment is a week old, but what I’ve noticed lately is that Critical Theory is often conflated with Critical Thinking by students. They believe that adhering to Critical Theory signifies intelligence and those who argue against it are stupid.
I’d bet this is not the kind of person Giles would nudge you to go ahead and argue with— “Go ahead, have a go, you’ll both be enriched”.the presumption on her part of your bad faith makes the conversation pointless and painful. Why deal with all the heat if you’re sure there won’t be as much as a wobbly ray of light?
in general, anyone whose thinking is governed by an airtight ideology won’t be able to engage you(in all the senses of that word).
Were you in your own home being interrupted by a guest? If so, you should have told them to shut up when you were talking.
Martin Bollis
2 years ago
I like the concept outlined in this article, but boy it’s not easy.
Like many on here I am occasionally a full on member of the truth party. Objectively, I can see how tiresome my convictions could be to others.
The problem is the objectivity. Having been accused of white fragility at my own dinner table, the effort to keep the visceral reaction under control was substantial and not something I want to keep repeating.
As I am at present able to judge you only by your contributions to UnHerd comments, I must say I would incline to agree with your dinner guest. Their lack of decorum, however, is unforgivable, whilst your self-restraint is to be thoroughly commended!
Any accusation of white fragility shows that the accuser defaults to cheap name calling when unable to mount an adult discussion.
Claire D
2 years ago
Despite the difficulties, best wishes for Christmas to everyone.
Mark Vernon
2 years ago
“To know the truth is to see things from multiple perspectives.” The Talmudic insight is manifest in paradise too, according to Dante, who sees Christians, Jews, Muslims and others rejoicing together in the heavens – having disagreed on earth to the point of declaring each other burnable heretics, now realising their heartfelt differences were as many reflections of the one light that exceeds any one articulation. Happy Christmas.
John Riordan
2 years ago
“Those who work in laboratories to find the next vaccine for Covid are not endlessly scrapping with each other. One of the most beautiful things about the scientific method is that it enables truth seeking to be a collaborative exercise. ”
Not what I’ve heard actually. I was told that in certain parts of the UK research sector, different teams can often be on non-speaking terms with each other. This is entirely anecdotal of course, something confided to me over dinner one night by someone who works in research. But I have good reason to trust them, given their seniority and qualifications.
Anyway, I’m definitely one of the Truthers in this context as opposed to a peace-prioritiser, but not when it comes to family and Christmas. I learned this the hard way ever since 2016 being the only Brexit supporter in the family and after a couple of ruined Christmas dinners had a minor moment of clarity in realising that I could afford to ignore all the bullshit flying across the table for the simple reason that i was on the winning side where it actually counts.
“Non-speaking terms”. Isn’t that the modern way of Red and Blue teams working towards a common goal? If it’s happening ‘naturally’ then it can’t be all bad.
bryarsnick
2 years ago
Oh for the innocent days of an argument about brexit rather than one about masks etc…
True story. at my significant age birthday party pre Brexit, pre Covid, two of my oldest friends were sat at a table with another two couples, also my friends. Brexit got “discussed”, and ended up as fisticuffs. The meal was fraught, and they stalked around each other for the rest of the night.
George Glashan
2 years ago
Have a Merry Covidmas everyone and may Greta bless you all !
Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
2 years ago
Christmas conversations.
Active listening (while temporarily keeping your own mouth shut) – a lost art ? This is more than just saying ‘yes’ and ‘no’ in the right places and ‘could you please pass the bread sauce ?’
Active listening is hard because what you are hearing a good portion of the time, are people’s fears filtered through a very particular language / narrative / personal experience.
Absorbing other people’s anxieties is wearing and then attempting to craft a civilised, equable, discussable response requires a very particular type of cognitive effort. This is why, in the main, I have huge respect for professional counsellors and psychotherapists.
The Talmudic references I really chimed with. All people of the Jewish persuasion I have been fortunate enough to meet and get to know, seem to be fearless about asking questions – about anything. If there is one thing that will save the human race long term IMHO, it will be this flavour of insatiable curiosity.
Which brings me back to active listening – if you aren’t really interested in digging and delving into why the quasi-fascist uncle is so afraid of women and immigrants then …. you had better just pass the bread sauce.
LoL ! that’s the best laugh I have had so far this Christmas – except I haven’t watched the colourised, re-discovered Morecombe and Wise yet ….
Seasons Greetings Julie – luuurve your incontinent, subversive tendencies !
Last edited 2 years ago by Elaine Giedrys-Leeper
Dustshoe Richinrut
2 years ago
It would seem that the great uncle and his grand-niece
My married Christmas family lunches had one benefit… legging it down to my stables at 4 pm to prepare my horses for Boxing Day Hunting,… and then sneaking off to bed!
Lesley van Reenen
2 years ago
Speak to my mother in law who gave me a huge, defiant shouting at, ate by herself and then went to bed.
Mel Bass
2 years ago
Reminds me of why I prefer to work over Christmas! Somebody has to, but it gets me out of those hideous festive get-togethers, where everyone’s walking on eggshells.
Martin Smith
2 years ago
Great. My wife’s not talking to me, my daughter-in-law’s angry with me, my father-in-law’s disappointed because I left him out of a family social event, and my eldest granddaughter’s in tears because I didn’t get her a pressie. Happy Christmas.
Jean Nutley
2 years ago
Simple. get a sign , writ large, that says “Be nice or leave” and stick to it. Give the offender a cheese sandwich to take home!
Christopher Chantrill
2 years ago
Don’t forget that, per Nazi Carl Schmitt, politics is the friend-enemy distinction. Or, as Curtis Yarvin writes, “there is no politics without an enemy.”
Thus the political struggle for justice is nothing more than a war against “them,” the enemy. Any political discussion comes down to the friend-enemy distinction.
For lordly types like you and me, politics is so vieux jeu. Old chap.
Galeti Tavas
2 years ago
From Seinfeld we get the holiday of Festivus
“The non-commercial holiday’s celebration, as depicted on Seinfeld, occurs on December 23 and includes a Festivus dinner, an unadorned aluminum Festivus pole, practices such as the Airing of Grievances and Feats of Strength, and the labeling of easily explainable events as Festivus miracles.”
Sounds like some posters tales – the airing of grievances part.
“Airing of grievancesThe “airing of grievances” takes place immediately after the Festivus dinner has been served. In the television episode, Frank Costanza began it with the phrase, “I got a lotta problems with you people, and now you’re going to hear about it!” It consists of each person lashing out at others and the world about how they have been disappointed in the past year”
“Feats of strengthThe “feats of strength” are the final tradition observed in the celebration of Festivus, celebrated immediately following (or in the case of “The Strike”, during) the Festivus dinner.[19] The head of the household selects one person at the Festivus celebration and challenges them to a wrestling match. Tradition states Festivus is not over until the head of the household has been pinned.”
Thank you Mr Fraser for a thoughtful piece for personal reflection.
GA Woolley
2 years ago
‘Just as people who can’t stand each other can still pray together.’ Apart from at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, of course, where the Palestinian police are routinely called to deal with brawls between Christian sects fighting over who can pray where and when.
Funny this article should come up. I just tried and failed to have a discussion last night. Or should I say, I was having a discussion with one person, quite cordially, when I was interrupted by a third who mentioned that I should not hold X, Y and Z views because I’m a white cis-gendered male, blah blah blah.
I gave some push back with why I believed Critical Race Theory (among other CTs) on which this lady’s views were based, conflated correlation with causation, not no mention being built on biological essentialism (ie itself racism).
After putting my case forward, she complained that I was ‘weaponising logic’ and “intellectualising” race and gender, while she, in contrast, “lived these issues as her reality”.
So, in short, as appears to be typical, such ideologues advance what they believe is an “intellectual” position. When you then respond in kind with your own counter position to this “intellectualism”, they then respond by falling back on their “lived experience” card. Criticism of their point of view is taken as proof that their point of view is correct in an extraordinary circular way.
I was told that we needed to have this “difficult conversation”, but every time she (and others) have said this, I have instead got the impression that what they really mean is that I must comply with their world view or they’ll cut me out of their lives.
Here’s hoping the rest of my “difficult Christmas conversations” go better than this last one did.
Sounds like cutting them out of your life would be the wise position.
it has got to the sad state of affairs where many once strong friendships are cracking under the strain of the culture wars. People who once saw me as a human being now see me as a blind instantiation of an enemy group, holding views to advance the power of that group at their personal expense. Bringing a child up in this kind of environment leaves me feeling rather cold.
It’s even worse when it’s family. Finding them seeing you as “as a blind instantiation of an enemy group” is bad enough. Realising that the vitriol is returned is a horrifying self reflection.
I presume this is a US experience. I would regard anyone who placed any general significance on anyone’s skin colour as mentally unbalanced. Lived experience is simply something filtered through one’s own biased lense. Fortunately, I can’t remember any Christmas gathering I have been at where the issue has arisen. I suppose if I had I would not engage with them just as you would seek to humour any lunatic suffering from some monomania.
We have had a couple we are friendly with from Nigeria round for New Year’s Eve for a number of years. She is a social worker so I presume is surrounded by colleagues who have been indoctrinated with CRT but the subject has never come up. They seem perfectly sane on subjects that we have discussed so I just presume as a Nigerian she is unlikely to be taken in by this US originated lunacy that appears to be creeping in over here. Although my sons are at University they seem untainted by the madness.
While I think CRT teaching should be banned in UK institutions I have not come across any adherents socially and would be disinclined to attempt to alter such a bigot’s views in a social setting if I did.
She’s clearly just a racist. Tell her to do one.
Also, I have a rule in my household that guests, lodgers, and lodgers’ guests are not allowed to interrupt me when I’m speaking.
I love this rule. I am going to type it out, laminate it and stick it on the door.
When you get trapped in the circular fallback of ‘lived experience’, try pointing out that it’s unfalsifiable. At first she will think that unfalsifiability proves her ideology (as all ideologues do) but you can then point out that the only way a theory can be validated is to hunt for exceptions to its explanatory value and try to account for them. The exceptions will either be accountable or they will disprove the theory. If she wants a sound theory, she needs to provide answers to its apparent holes. If she is unwilling she has to accept she’s not interested in truth finding, but only in blind feeling. She also needs to understand that apparent unfalsifiability isn’t an asset but a great big red flag.
Judy you are essentially repeating verbatim what I said to her, at which point she claimed that my reasoning, rooted in patriarchal racial supremacist thinking, was itself oppressive, thereby making it invalid as a mode of rebuttal.
Of course, being an adherent of CRT, the only thing that mattered in her eyes was who was making the argument, not what the argument contained.
And, she was, no less, a graduate of Oxford.
Per below, my own experience was also at the hands of an Oxford grad. I wonder if it’s something they catch there.
“She also needs to understand that apparent unfalsifiability isn’t an asset but a great big red flag.”
This is essentially impossible for any person inclined to think in such a way in the first place.
Yes, challenging for many first year undergraduates (I remember the hunt for complete explanations well) but they should be trained how to think before they even consider having an opinion. Unfortunately that approach appears to be long gone as they don’t believe it’s possible to adopt a critical standpoint outside the accident of birth. For them, being critical means starting with the premise that there is no universal reason, only the standpoints of the marginalised which should be used to upend the supposedly self-serving standpoints of the ‘privileged’. That’s what criticism is for them. As usual, a word has been hijacked to mean the opposite of its original definition: not checking your theory in a state of healthy doubt, but doubling down on ideology from a position of radical activism.
I know this comment is a week old, but what I’ve noticed lately is that Critical Theory is often conflated with Critical Thinking by students. They believe that adhering to Critical Theory signifies intelligence and those who argue against it are stupid.
I would take ‘weaponising logic’ as a compliment.
I’d bet this is not the kind of person Giles would nudge you to go ahead and argue with— “Go ahead, have a go, you’ll both be enriched”.the presumption on her part of your bad faith makes the conversation pointless and painful. Why deal with all the heat if you’re sure there won’t be as much as a wobbly ray of light?
in general, anyone whose thinking is governed by an airtight ideology won’t be able to engage you(in all the senses of that word).
Were you in your own home being interrupted by a guest? If so, you should have told them to shut up when you were talking.
I like the concept outlined in this article, but boy it’s not easy.
Like many on here I am occasionally a full on member of the truth party. Objectively, I can see how tiresome my convictions could be to others.
The problem is the objectivity. Having been accused of white fragility at my own dinner table, the effort to keep the visceral reaction under control was substantial and not something I want to keep repeating.
“accused of white fragility at my own dinner table”
Any woke racist trying that on with me gets shown the door.
As I am at present able to judge you only by your contributions to UnHerd comments, I must say I would incline to agree with your dinner guest. Their lack of decorum, however, is unforgivable, whilst your self-restraint is to be thoroughly commended!
Interesting comment. I’m not really sure what white fragility is, other than a woke insult.
I’d be interested to know in what way I’ve exhibited the characteristics and indeed what they are.
Any accusation of white fragility shows that the accuser defaults to cheap name calling when unable to mount an adult discussion.
Despite the difficulties, best wishes for Christmas to everyone.
“To know the truth is to see things from multiple perspectives.” The Talmudic insight is manifest in paradise too, according to Dante, who sees Christians, Jews, Muslims and others rejoicing together in the heavens – having disagreed on earth to the point of declaring each other burnable heretics, now realising their heartfelt differences were as many reflections of the one light that exceeds any one articulation. Happy Christmas.
“Those who work in laboratories to find the next vaccine for Covid are not endlessly scrapping with each other. One of the most beautiful things about the scientific method is that it enables truth seeking to be a collaborative exercise. ”
Not what I’ve heard actually. I was told that in certain parts of the UK research sector, different teams can often be on non-speaking terms with each other. This is entirely anecdotal of course, something confided to me over dinner one night by someone who works in research. But I have good reason to trust them, given their seniority and qualifications.
Anyway, I’m definitely one of the Truthers in this context as opposed to a peace-prioritiser, but not when it comes to family and Christmas. I learned this the hard way ever since 2016 being the only Brexit supporter in the family and after a couple of ruined Christmas dinners had a minor moment of clarity in realising that I could afford to ignore all the bullshit flying across the table for the simple reason that i was on the winning side where it actually counts.
“Non-speaking terms”. Isn’t that the modern way of Red and Blue teams working towards a common goal? If it’s happening ‘naturally’ then it can’t be all bad.
Oh for the innocent days of an argument about brexit rather than one about masks etc…
True story. at my significant age birthday party pre Brexit, pre Covid, two of my oldest friends were sat at a table with another two couples, also my friends. Brexit got “discussed”, and ended up as fisticuffs. The meal was fraught, and they stalked around each other for the rest of the night.
Have a Merry Covidmas everyone and may Greta bless you all !
Christmas conversations.
Active listening (while temporarily keeping your own mouth shut) – a lost art ? This is more than just saying ‘yes’ and ‘no’ in the right places and ‘could you please pass the bread sauce ?’
Active listening is hard because what you are hearing a good portion of the time, are people’s fears filtered through a very particular language / narrative / personal experience.
Absorbing other people’s anxieties is wearing and then attempting to craft a civilised, equable, discussable response requires a very particular type of cognitive effort. This is why, in the main, I have huge respect for professional counsellors and psychotherapists.
The Talmudic references I really chimed with. All people of the Jewish persuasion I have been fortunate enough to meet and get to know, seem to be fearless about asking questions – about anything. If there is one thing that will save the human race long term IMHO, it will be this flavour of insatiable curiosity.
Which brings me back to active listening – if you aren’t really interested in digging and delving into why the quasi-fascist uncle is so afraid of women and immigrants then …. you had better just pass the bread sauce.
LoL ! that’s the best laugh I have had so far this Christmas – except I haven’t watched the colourised, re-discovered Morecombe and Wise yet ….
Seasons Greetings Julie – luuurve your incontinent, subversive tendencies !
It would seem that the great uncle and his grand-niece
don’t see eye to eye
So to maintain the peace
they say, Yes Please!
… to offerings of pudding and mince pies
Last sentence: should be “whom”, surely.
You don’t see a lot of whom around these days.
Lol. Whence cometh thou ?
My married Christmas family lunches had one benefit… legging it down to my stables at 4 pm to prepare my horses for Boxing Day Hunting,… and then sneaking off to bed!
Speak to my mother in law who gave me a huge, defiant shouting at, ate by herself and then went to bed.
Reminds me of why I prefer to work over Christmas! Somebody has to, but it gets me out of those hideous festive get-togethers, where everyone’s walking on eggshells.
Great. My wife’s not talking to me, my daughter-in-law’s angry with me, my father-in-law’s disappointed because I left him out of a family social event, and my eldest granddaughter’s in tears because I didn’t get her a pressie. Happy Christmas.
Simple. get a sign , writ large, that says “Be nice or leave” and stick to it. Give the offender a cheese sandwich to take home!
Don’t forget that, per Nazi Carl Schmitt, politics is the friend-enemy distinction. Or, as Curtis Yarvin writes, “there is no politics without an enemy.”
Thus the political struggle for justice is nothing more than a war against “them,” the enemy. Any political discussion comes down to the friend-enemy distinction.
For lordly types like you and me, politics is so vieux jeu. Old chap.
From Seinfeld we get the holiday of Festivus
“The non-commercial holiday’s celebration, as depicted on Seinfeld, occurs on December 23 and includes a Festivus dinner, an unadorned aluminum Festivus pole, practices such as the Airing of Grievances and Feats of Strength, and the labeling of easily explainable events as Festivus miracles.”
Sounds like some posters tales – the airing of grievances part.
“Airing of grievancesThe “airing of grievances” takes place immediately after the Festivus dinner has been served. In the television episode, Frank Costanza began it with the phrase, “I got a lotta problems with you people, and now you’re going to hear about it!” It consists of each person lashing out at others and the world about how they have been disappointed in the past year”
“Feats of strengthThe “feats of strength” are the final tradition observed in the celebration of Festivus, celebrated immediately following (or in the case of “The Strike”, during) the Festivus dinner.[19] The head of the household selects one person at the Festivus celebration and challenges them to a wrestling match. Tradition states Festivus is not over until the head of the household has been pinned.”
Festivus is one of my favourite celebrations.
Thank you Mr Fraser for a thoughtful piece for personal reflection.
‘Just as people who can’t stand each other can still pray together.’ Apart from at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, of course, where the Palestinian police are routinely called to deal with brawls between Christian sects fighting over who can pray where and when.
Maybe not quite so Christian then?
Merry Christmas!