Many people feel that Anders Tegnell’s approach has been overly laissez-faire and that even now, he should be introducing more draconian measures. A model this week from his Health Agency suggested as many as 3000 additional deaths may be seen in Sweden in the next year — shouldn’t he do more to stop that happening?
He insists that those projections are only models, and that he hopes and expects to achieve a much better result. But he is also mindful of whether these draconian measures may do more harm than good:
“Of course we are trying to keep the mortality rates as low as possible, but at the same time we have to look at the draconian measures you are talking about. Are they going to produce even more deaths by other means than the disease itself? Somehow we need to have the discussion of what we are actually trying to achieve. Is it better for public health as a whole? Or is it trying to suppress Covid-19 as much as possible? Because getting rid of it I don’t think is going to happen: it happened for a short time in New Zealand and maybe Iceland and those kind of countries might be able to keep it away, but with the global world we have today, keeping a disease like this away has never been possible in the past and it would be even more surprising if it were possible in the future.”
One type of intervention that does not appear to have adverse effects is encouraging, or mandating, the use of masks. This has become an intensely political issue in the US and more recently in the UK. In Sweden mask use is minimal in almost all settings. Why is he not even recommending use of masks?
“One reason is that the evidence base for using masks in society is still very weak. Even if more and more countries are now enforcing them in different ways … we haven’t seen any new evidence coming up, which is a little bit surprising. The other reason is that everything tells us that keeping social distance is a much better way of controlling this disease than putting masks on people. We are worried (and we get at least tales from other countries) that people put on masks and then they believe they can go around in society being close to each other, even going around in society being sick. And that, in our view, would definitely produce higher spread than we have right now.”
The emphasis on spread of the virus to the exclusion of everything else Dr Tegnell believes is misguided, as the number of cases is less and less correlated to the number of deaths.
“Deaths are not so closely connected to the amount of cases you have in a country. There are so many other things that influence the amount of deaths you have. What part of the population gets hit? Is it the elderly people? How well can you protect people in your long-term facilities? How well does your healthcare system continue to function? How can we improve the treatment in ICUs? All of these things have been changing a lot in the past few months… Those things will influence mortality a lot more, I think, than the actual spread of the disease.”
His belief is that, in the final account, the Infection Fatality Rate will be similar to the flu: “somewhere between 0.1% and 0.5% of people getting infected, maybe … And that is not radically different to what we see with the yearly flu.”
On the controversial question of immunity, he suggests that a larger percentage of the population in Sweden is already immune than antibody studies suggest.
“There are a number of small studies already that show that of people who had been diagnosed with Covid-19 with PCR, not all of them develop antibodies. On the other hand we have quite a lot of evidence that falling ill with Covid-19 twice seems to be extremely rare… Obviously there is also quite a big part of the population that has other kinds of immunity and T Cell immunity is the one that is most likely.
“What we see right now is a rapid fall in the number of cases, and of course some kind of immunity has to be involved in that as nothing else has changed. That means that immunity affects the R value quite a lot in Sweden today.”
Further readingWhy we aren't wearing masks in Sweden
By Freddie Sayers
Does that mean that Sweden will be better placed to limit second waves and future flare ups than countries that have had minimal infection levels so far?
“I think it’s likely that those kinds of outbreaks will be easier to limit in Sweden because there is immunity in the population. All our experience with measles and other diseases shows that … we know that with large immunity in the population it is much easier to control the outbreaks than if you don’t have immunity in the population.
“There is now a number of countries in Europe that have a fairly low level of spread for a very long time, which is very unusual with a disease that seems to be so contagious, and where there is so little immunity in the population. If that is really a sustainable way for the disease to exist we will wait and see — I think the fall will show if it is possible or not.”
The eyes of the world have been on him for the past few months. How would he like to be judged, and when?
“It is better to have a more complete discussion around this in say 12 months, after next summer, then I think we can more fairly judge what has been good in some countries and bad in other countries.”
He has promised to talk to us again at that time. 23rd July 2021 – it’s in the diary.
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SubscribeGreat interview and really good to hear from one of the last sane public servants currently to have the ear of a national government on this issue..
I have felt that the criticism that Sweden gets from the MSM in the UK is misplaced and seems to be completely ignorant of historical context. Sweden is treated like it is a pariah state (a word I have actually seen in a disgraceful ‘quality’ paper’s headline), when actually they are following a well established model for coping with a pandemic/epidemic. They are also doing something more akin to how the UK has traditionally (last hundred years at least) behaved. Its the rest of us now that seem to have reverted to near pre-enlightenment levels of irrationality.
The authorities and people in Sweden should feel proud that they kept their heads and resisted the urge to sacrifice everything in the name of an unrealistic hope of total suppression of one threat. A goal which is pursued elsewhere at the expense of amplifying hardship along every other metric.
Lets hope the next year goes well for them and their critics remember that their success will be good news for all of us.
You are misinformed,
Sweden do not follow the “established model” for coping with a pandemic. WHO have called on states to
1. Test Test Test
2. Isolate
3. Trace
Fact is: Sweden test rate is incredibly low even 5,6 months into the pandemic, Sweden have no isolation/quaratine regimen and they do not trace, in fact just a couple of days ago Tegnell’s public health agency called on sick invidiuals themselves to trace!
The critics are right, Sweden is a pariah like a couple of other badly administred countries on tackling Covid19.
I think a lot of us appreciate how frustrating it is when your home country pursues a policy you find self destructive, so I sympathise even if I don’t agree.
However, you can’t honestly look at the rest of the world and think we have it right? In the UK, research suggests 200,000 people will die as a result of lock-down and the associated economic downturn. This is to say nothing of the human cost of missed education; entrenched tribalism with the compliant with health measures encouraged to harass and shame the non-compliant etc. Meanwhile, our chief medical officer has joined the chorus of others who have admitted that the downward trajectory in Covid cases happened at least a week before lock-down. This has been one of the most irrational responses to a pandemic this side of the enlightenment – were it happening in a non western country we would be re-assuring people it would never happen here. However, we have all rushed to copy China; an authoritarian superstate – without wondering if that was wise.
As for the WHO guidance, my point was that the precedent in this country has not been to adopt these community based non pharmaceutical interventions – not during Spanish Flu (to my knowledge) or during Asian Flu and Hong Kong flu (and in the case of the last two, that is also true for the US). Lock-downs were not recommended by the WHO and I am not sure if – in fact – they include any requirement for a cost and benefit analysis or threshold for virulence before the use of the measures they do recommend. The point is, recommended or not, they weren’t done.
You say: “Our chief medical officer has joined the chorus of others who have
admitted that the downward trajectory in Covid cases happened at least a
week before lock-down”.Where did you read that? Chris Whitty said on 15th April he believed that the UK had reached the peak of the epidemic. This turned out to be the case (for now). He subsequently urged the government to not lift the lockdown without effective test-trace-isolate in place.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/…
Chris Whitty said this to the Health Select Committee in parliament the other day, quoted in the Times (July 22nd)
The peak of new daily deaths occurred in the 08 to 15 April time period, which means, given time delay from infection to death, the peak of new infections happened around mid to late March.
It is the same for most Countries irrespective of measures taken.
Test/trace is not a cure. Quarantine has to be complete, the infectious isolated from people and the external environment otherwise it is a waste of time. The pretend quarantine at home is as effective as carrying water in a colander because you don’t have a bucket handy.
What’s your thinking on Belgium. Serious lockdown. Higher death rate than Sweden?
I’m just a layperson, but I do wonder about all this testing.
A lot of effort appears to be going into testing – is this really worthwhile? Or could efforts and resources be expended more effectively – e.g. focusing on protecting the vulnerable, as well as appropriate social distancing?
For example, in the state of Victoria in Australia, as of today, there are 7,125 ‘cases’, and there have been 1,413,115 tests.
Parts of Victoria are back in lockdown, i.e. Metropolitan Melbourne and Mitchell Shire, where people are only allowed to leave home for shopping for essential items, care-giving, exercise, and work or study if this can’t be done at home. People have to wear masks or face covering if they leave home.
So people are being restricted because of emerging ‘cases’.
What is the definition of a ‘case’, the symptoms? A sniffle? What exactly? It’s confusing because this virus seems to be harmless for many, and dangerous for a few.
And how exactly are these ‘cases’ being confirmed? How effective is the testing? False positives? False negatives?
There is great fear-mongering across the community, but who is really at risk? The deaths I hear about in the media are generally people in their 80s, 90s’, even a woman in her ‘hundreds’.
People across all age groups are being deliberately frightened by the government – politicians and medical officers. On what basis?
There have been 49 COVID-19 reported deaths in Victoria as of today – but at the moment there is no breakdown re ages, co-morbidities etc on the government website. There is little transparency.
Similarly there is scant information re ages and comorbidities of people in hospital, and just how ill are these people, and with what symptoms?
There is a gross lack of information about the real risks of the current situation.
While much fear-mongering and alarm is being promoted via the media, are people being given any useful advice for their own protection, e.g. that vitamin D may be a useful supplement?
Again, I’m just a layperson, so don’t pretend to have any expertise in this area, but I’m just asking questions…
I really wonder about the way things are being handled in Australia… Plus who knows what lies ahead for our society and economy as this shakes down.
I so agree with all your points. It is like “Monkey see-Monkey do” mentality.
The WHO model for such virus, based on years of evidence from experience, is to recognise it is impossible to control them, therefore protect those most at risk, those with serious underlying conditions which usually means the elderly.
What WHO now may be promoting is a political model, based on no evidence from experience.
My maths may be suspect when I claim that I think new daily infections in U.K. were running at around 400,000 at peak. It has long been recognised that highly transmissible viruses simply cannot be contained & eliminated by trace, trace & isolate. WHOs own written guidance is not even to both to try this in most cases.
Sweden isn’t a pariah. You’re accurately noting that lots of people are so describing it.
How do you explain Jean Redpath’s (above) figures then?
You sound to me like a ‘shrieker’ who has lost their critical faculties.
WHO not only was complicit with China on covering the contagion up, but has been wrong or changed their minds on so many issues. We do not trust Who’s heavily politically influenced DATA AND opinions. You are fools if you do too.
‘The authorities and people in Sweden should feel proud that they kept their heads and resisted the urge to sacrifice everything’
Well, of course they feel proud because they are are the ones who lived. The dead Swedes probably would not have agreed with you though….
Are you aware how few people of working age have died in Sweden? Please have a look at this data:
https://www.statista.com/st….
Only 228 under 60, only a further 382 aged 60-70. These are very small numbers.
Sweden’s failure was among the care homes, as has been admitted.
Lockdowns, if they do anything in the short term, affect the working-age population, and would not have prevented the majority of deaths, which occurred in the 70+ age groups.
I see the same here in the States, with the addition of people weakened by diseases, addictions to alcohol and drugs. See the NY State example fully 70% of deaths there have been nursing home cross- contamination and the afore – mentioned derelicts. Thanks for the comparison!
So in summary then
Money should not be wasted on weak people.
Survival of the fittest.
You should hope you don’t come down with a nasty disease
That’s not really what he said at all though, right? maybe you need to go back and re-read it?
People are made weak by a combination of their own choices, the values of a society that positively encourages such choices, and the conditions people have no choice but to live under. The reopening of pubs before swimming pools tells us a lot about British values. I would welcome the opportunity to contract covid provided I knew it had happened so I could stay away from genuinely vulnerable people for the required length of time, then I would be contributing to the immunity of the general population.
Exactly, well said, yet it has taken four months to get here! Incredible.
Come off it!
The “butchers bill” is only circa 5,700, better proportionally than the UK. You are far too sentimental. Not all deaths are tragic, in fact the majority are quite natural. Some indeed a ‘merciful release’.
Just look at how many of our Care Homes are stuffed with near ‘vegetables’, thanks to dementia and related maladies. Existing is not living.
If we had followed Sweden’s policy, as we so nearly did, our so called economy might have stood a chance of a full recovery.
Remember.
One day people will view you as a vegetable and give you ‘merciful release’
Jolly good!
Yes! Expect he won’t see it the same way when it’s HIS turn. Life is precious.
Nonsense.”The man who is not afraid of death will always be your master”.
I shall let you find out who said that.
I have taken precautions that this won’t happen and I don’t have to live as a vegetable
The MSM here in the UK is, as you say, ‘completely ignorant’. This is why so many of us now have nothing to do with it.
Agreed. Seems incredible that for months our masters – Insist Masks no use outside of hospital scenarios and now make them mandatory. – Refrain from flight restrictions until the end of a pandemic – Worry that the pandemic will be over before they have a vaccine……maybe they hope Nappy Face will keep it going long enough for the vaccine to be of use? – Meanwhile her are a couple of conspiracy spoofs that at least would give a purpose to the social and economic destruction – https://www.youtube.com/wat… – https://www.youtube.com/wat…
What success ? do you call 3K dead denied care and about 2K elders euthanized, success? Saving lives saves livelihoods. If people are worried they don’t spend, and the economy suffers, if we all feel well the economy recovers, it’s all connected. The moronic lack of strategy by the Swedish administration has turned into a cover-up, there is a constant gaslighting to the public, by senior politicians and bureaucrats. We failed miserably and have become a pariah, our next generation will pay the price for our mistakes, I say ours because we the citizens should be demanding change, but it has been convenient for many, ” my family is not affected, why should I care” There is also the sad reality that not just in Sweden but in all of Scandinavia, once we put our elders in care homes, they are checked out, we don’t visit them as often, out of sight out of mind, they are someone else’s problem. This is horrible of us, we need to be more like our Southern European friends. We are all to blame in Sweden, we keep silent and this is despicable.
I thought Tengell spoke pretty well to this in the video. There seems to be a great number of catalysts for deadlier outbreaks of covid. I think Sweden has done a tremendous job of keeping the economy open and maintaining schooling for kids. As someone in the Northeast of the US, our state saw double the death rate of Sweden. We also saw much longer shutdowns than both Denmark and Norway, and no return to school for kids. Our children are going to have to wear masks when they return, and are largely growing up in a state of obedience, state rule and fear that didn’t exist at this time last year. Our economy has been destroyed. Businesses are dropping like flies and our state now has the highest unemployment rate in the country at over 17%. Retail and office vacancies have skyrocketed. Real estate is likely heading for a collapse in 6 months time. Many people lose health insurance with their job losses. 5.4 million have lost insurance in the US due to lockdowns, not covid. All this and Massachusetts has more than double the death rate of Sweden, New York and New Jersey about Triple the death rate. Not to mention Sweden is seeing steadier declines, and signs of herd immunity and probably will be best suited to a second wave. I believe whole heartedly that their measured approach is best. They absolutely could have protected long term care better, but that is not the only part of this. The strategy is quite sound in my opinion.
Relevant to this matter, here’s my rapid response published on The BMJ on 13 July 2020:
Looking at Sweden, COVID-19 and vitamin D…
Most of the reported COVID-19 deaths in Sweden are in the elderly – is there a problem with vitamin D deficiency in this age group?
Latest reported deaths in Sweden are 5,526 (pop. 10.23 million), with 1,428 deaths in people over 90. 2,300 deaths are reported for people in the age group 80-90 So that’s 3,728 of the deaths. Then there are reportedly 1,194 deaths in the age group 70-79. That’s 4,922 deaths across the age group 70 to over 90. There are 379 deaths reported across the ages 60-69. And 156 deaths in the age group 50-59. With a total of 69 deaths across the ages of 0-49 years.[1]
So most of the deaths are in the elderly age group 70 to 90, i.e. 4,922 deaths, people who are also likely to have comorbidities.
Some previous studies have identified vitamin D deficiency in Swedish nursing homes, see for example “Vitamin D deficiency was common among nursing home residents and associated with dementia: a cross sectional study of 545 Swedish nursing home residents”[2], and “Vitamin D deficiency in elderly people in Swedish nursing homes is associated with increased mortality”[3].
Considering Sweden as a whole, it seems most of the population remains alive and not adversely affected by SARS-CoV-2 in the prime of their lives. Perhaps Sweden has made the right decision not to grossly disrupt its society and the lives of millions of people with draconian lockdowns?
Internationally, the focus now should be on finding effective treatments and strategies for the sick, i.e. generally elderly people. And recommending long-term practical preventive measures for the population generally, to reduce the prospect of the illnesses which exacerbate the effects of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, and enhance health, e.g. promoting optimum vitamin D levels.
References:
1. As at 10 July 2020 on the Statista webpage: Number of coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths in Sweden in 2020, by age groups
2. Arnljots, R., Thorn, J., Elm, M. et al. Vitamin D deficiency was common among nursing home residents and associated with dementia: a cross sectional study of 545 Swedish nursing home residents. BMC Geriatr 17, 229 (2017).
3. Maria Samefors et al. Vitamin D deficiency in elderly people in Swedish nursing homes is associated with increased mortality. European Journal of Endocrinology. May 2014. 170:5, 667-675.
Do we have the statistics of deaths in those age groups for the UK?
Yes Warren, here are some figures I put together on COVID-19 deaths from the ONS website*, up to 3 July 2020:
Age Groups:
<1-39: 296
40-54: 1,545
55-69: 6,282
70-90+: 42,016
TOTAL: 50,139
Breakdown of 70-90+ Age Groups
70-74: 4,611
75-79: 6,668
80-84: 9,558
85-89: 10,274
90+: 10,905
TOTAL: 42,016
These figures are for England and Wales, population 59,439,900.
(ONS population statistics.)
So at 3 July 2020 around 59,389,761 people remained alive…
Also, looking at the (ONS) table Covid-19 Weekly registrations, looks like deaths peaked around 17 April 2020, and have been declining steadily since…
* Weekly provisional figures on deaths registered where coronavirus (COVID-19) was mentioned on the death certificate in England and Wales.
Thanks for your posts Elizabeth, much appreciated. The problem is that this information is, and always has been, readily available and yet people are still scared for their lives. There is still no intelligent debate generally about the proportionality, efficacy or risks of lockdowns, in fact the narrative is still about social distancing, masks and a second wave … I just find this whole affair frightening and perplexing
As they say “God is alive and well and working on a less ambitious project “.
Excellent work, well done.
Thanks for this and the references – they are startling numbers aren’t they. Suggesting a correlation with Vit. D deficiency has been put forward often, but like most other factors it doesn’t seem to ‘hold up’ when you look at other countries/geographies as one would expect.
This doesn’t mean it isn’t a factor, it could be one of many that causes the variations in outcomes.
What do you think of the debate about Vitamin d in general – see this article [1] which concludes:
‘evidence has accumulated over the last few years that strongly challenges the “latitude hypothesis” of vitamin D and that should cause us to question with great skepticism the idea that we evolved as naked apes in the summer sun with blood levels similar to
tropical lifeguards and that anyone living outside the equatorial
regions must supplement with vitamin D for most of the year in order to
achieve such evolutionary concentrations.
These data in no way whatsoever show that levels above 30 ng/mL or
even levels above 50 ng/mL are not superior to measly ol’ 30 ng/mL. But
they do show the necessity of quickly producing dose-finding,
randomized, controlled trials with clinical endpoints to satisfy the
vitamin D debate definitively.‘
1 : https://www.westonaprice.or…
Here is another paper connecting vitamin D deficiency with deaths:
10.31232/osf.io/73whx
I’m not a doctor nor medically trained beyond A Level biology. However last year after blood tests I was found to be vitamin D deficient and have been taking supplements since. Before supplements I was picking up minor colds etc every few weeks. Since supplements I’ve been ill twice in 18 months.
When I made the possible suggestion that in the UK the high deaths may be related to unhealthy lifestyles and vitamin D deficiencies I was mocked, even by friends. So it is good to know that someone more qualified than me is asking the question! Until it was a problem for me I never realised how important vitamin D was for the immune system.
Lion, look for this rapid response published on The BMJ: COVID-19 ‘ICU’ risk – 20-fold greater in the Vitamin D Deficient. BAME, African Americans, the Older, Institutionalised and Obese, are at greatest risk. Sun and ‘D’-supplementation – Game-changers? Research urgently required. Published 24 April 2020.
Note this conclusion of the rapid response:
Human nature is such that simple solutions to complex issues, for example vitamin C for scurvy, and hand washing prior to baby delivery, are often not readily embraced; but surely the scale and impact of the COVID-19 pandemic demands all avenues are fully explored; more so when no other effective treatment strategies as yet exist. A safe simple step, the correction of a deficiency state, vitamin D this time, convincingly holds out a potential, significant, feasible ‘COVID-19 mitigation remedy.
Also Lion, vitamin D status is complex. For example, I live in Adelaide, Australia, a sunny country. But I seldom get direct sun exposure. Being of Irish descent, I have very pale skin, and had some very severe sunburns after I arrived here as a kid from the UK in 1970. In the years after we were warned of the risk of skin cancer due to sun exposure. I’m outside regularly walking, but always covered up, wearing a hat and sunscreen. Now I’m careful to take vitamin D and C supplements, as I too was regularly prone to respiratory ailments. Interesting that children too might not get much sun exposure as they’re pressed to cover up and wear hats when outside at school. It’s a matter of striking a balance between risks I suppose. We should have more independent and objective research in this area. However, it seems a lot of the dollars are being gobbled up in the ‘race for the vaccine’ that is being led by Bill Gates…
I am a holistic practitioner and Vitamin D deficiency is on the rise because we are warned about being in the sun and when we are, to liberally apply sunscreen (often containing toxic chemicals). Therefore, not able to make our own Vitamin D. In the long term care places – I can bet they are not given Vitamin D and most will never be out in sunshine and they get an annual flu shot too – you see where I am going with this.
Is Sweden giving asylum to people on grounds of mental health, wishing to flee the Covid insanity in just about every other (formerly) developed (formerly) free Country where Governments and populations have gone barking mad?
How may I apply from Zombie Apocalypse France?
Tegnell and Sweden has a tough time right now since (almost) all politicians in the world fear the verdict from their citizens when they understand that lockdowns, facemasks etc. probably was a massive overreaction.
But for now people who has spent weeks or even months in lockdown don´t want it to be for nothing so they join in the criticism.
Many commentators seems to be very sure about the outcome of this pandemic and what should have been done, have you ever considered applying for a job at the WHO so the rest of us (the ignorant bunch) can feel a lot safer when SARS 3 arrives?
The best comparison in the world between lockdown or not must be Copenhagen (Denmark) and Malmö (Sweden) two international cities with only a bridge between them (Remember the TVseries BRON?).
Silly facemasks are of course not used on either side…. in Denmark and Sweden you stay at home when you feel sick.
So to all you epidemiologists out there, start your numbercrunching…
We are all lucky Sweden is trying something slightly different so that the world can learn some things. Tegnell makes a great point in Stockholm looking and acting more like London than places like Helsinki and Oslo. Also that Copenhagen has far more COVID than southern Sweden. The truth is, there is a lot to learn about the illness. Again, it’s great that there are some different examples to study.
Great interview as usual, Freddie. Dr. Tegnell points to the volume of original introduction of the disease due to international travel as a cause for the quite different incidence of the disease in different regions of Sweden. I wondered if the Wuhan 2019 Military World Games held on October 18-27, 2019 might be part of the explanation related to international travel. Sweden had 72 competitors in the Games, more than any other Nordic country. Norway, with which it is often compared in the COVID stats, only sent 28. Germany, which has had good COVID stats, only sent 243 competitors, although it has about eight times as many people as Sweden. Some of the Swedish competitors, being younger top athletes could well have contracted the disease asymptomatically and passed it on with no-one being the wiser.
Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that this and similar inquiries about why Sweden would have higher fatality rates than, say Norway and Germany, will be properly pursued. The politicians and bureaucrats in other countries who initiated harsh lockdowns have too much invested in justifying their own policies. If they can’t make Swedish health officials their whipping boys they fear they may become the whipping boys of their own publics.
For better or worse, I will be eternally grateful for Sweden for offering the only viable control we have in judging lockdown retrospectively, as a means of controlling a pandemic.
Nobody seems to be seriously contemplating that any and all of our efforts may be having precisely zero affect on the severity of the pandemic (not that it’s turning out to be so very severe as was first supposed). I hope this might be considered, as any truly scientific study would.
I would hazard a guess however that political opportunism off the back of the pandemic has and will likely cause many times more pain, suffering and death that the pandemic itself. That’s notwithstanding the acutely suspicious circumstances of the virus’ outbreak.
I agree with you completely. I was fearful at one point that Sweden, too, would cave, and then we’d never know.
The UK’s response to many challenges is shaped by the relative spinelessness of all our leaders and how our political party system has collapsed from learned discussion and compromise into a cesspool of sound bites and confrontational criticism. Our policy makers all seem to be cut from the same cloth and try at all costs to foolishly appease their critics; completely failing to appreciate that it is actually an impossible task because their opponents objectives are to simply to criticise everything. We see the same sad battle play out everyday and the futility of it soaks into every corner of society. It is refreshing to see mature leadership in action and gives some small hope that we may one day see the same in the UK.
That’s the thing though isn’t it – Sweden have given themselves space to be rational because decisions about public health are taken by public health professionals, not politicians. Therein lies the problem. In most countries the virus very quickly became a political issue, not a public health one.
And hopefully in Canada too. 🙂
An excellent interview,despite Mr Sayers temporary lapses of self control.
Sweden is to be applauded for its gravure performance, particularly its ‘cost benefit analysis’.
Why could we (UK) not have done the same? It is a question that will rightly haunt Boris & Co to their graves.
Perhaps one of the answers is that Sweden hasn’t had a War since 1815. Even ‘sainted’ Denmark can’t say that. Sweden seems to evolved faster than the rest of us, who remain locked in a never ending vortex of hysteria and cant.
Yes, I suppose the Sweden Democrats are a sure sign of Sweden’s sophisticated evolution as you say. Well done !
The “Sweden Democrats”? Don’t you mean Swedish Democrats?
Either way its good to see that sarcasm is alive and well.
Can be either name. Wiki
Wiki is not the OED, but thanks,
Swedish democrats tranlates as svenska demokrater
Sweden democrats translates as sverige demokrater
Sverigedemokraterna is the Swedish name for the party
I’d say Sweden’s long affair with far left politics and policies set them back a great many decades – for a resource rich nation without participation in two of the major wars that decimated other economies during the 20th C they should be far higher up the GDP table than they are. Thankfully that’s all gone since it culminated in their early 90s financial crises and they embraced sensible ideas.
And to today – yes, this is a fascinating interview and shows how Sweden could well be proved right in the end on its Covid response. If only Johnson had held firm. We will see
disappointed by freddie’s rather hostile tone and insistance on issues that by now he should be clearer on (such as cases:mortality and the varied levels of immunity). from what i can see most countries did very little or no risk/cost analysis for their lockdowns and i respect anders tegnell for doing this, for not going with the fear driven herd, for choosing and sticking to a policy that has been so criticised, for acknowledging the mistakes in long term elderly facilities, for having the important awareness the very different ways deaths are being recorded in different countries/the difficulties in comparing death rates, being willing to admit when he doesn’t know, being grounded and sane.
In contrast I was pleased that Sayers did ask some challenging questions. He has been criticised before for giving interviewees an easy time. Having Tegnell answer some of those tough questions helps provide insight into rationale and uncovers discussion points.
A few random reflections:
Talk about creating monsters – the fear of a thing is often worse than the thing itself. Are we currently seeing a perfect example of this?
Do those who think that the reaction to the covid is an over reaction feel they are in the minority? I suspect so and feel that they are mistaken. Are the mainstream media and our Government totally disconnected from the majority opinion? My experience suggests so. I cannot reveal what I do for a living for confidentiality reasons, but I have contact with many people from a broad range of backgrounds. It is rare that I hear any support for the draconian steps the Government has taken. The mask issue typical of this – going from polls and discourse in the mainstream media there is a lot of support for wearing them. Only a very few I have encountered support wearing masks. Comments such as bonkers, absurd, intrusive, madness imposed by the deranged (a health care professional).
I am detecting an increasing amount of frustration and anger in the people I routinely meet and speak to about the current situation. This will manifest itself in time, probably through the ballot box. I sense more are feeling disenfranchised and UnHerd. Talk about common sense flying out of the window.
I’m a recently retired research scientist who spent 30+ years piecing together clues about disease mechanisms in order to search for new therapeutic drugs.
Compared with that very multidimensional puzzle, this pandemic seems to me to be relatively simple.
The shapes of the daily deaths v time plots across a wide range of heavily infected countries are nearly identical, displaced by date & intensity only. That shape is instantly recognisable as nearly-Gompertz like, generally a sign of a natural phenomenon.
I hypothesised months ago that the process leading to steady falls in daily deaths was slow acquisition of massed population resistance to the virus. In brief, it’s fading away as a leading cause of death due to a reduction in numbers of people susceptible to the virus. This idea isn’t whacky, indeed that it happens is mainstream. What isn’t mainstream is my hunch that the extent of it is wholly the reason for the steady falls from medical relevance of Covid19.
I think Tegnell would like to come out with a statement like this, but he cannot. First, it might be either wrong or a smaller part of the process & anyway, media are so filled with venom that he’d be cancelled by teatime.
The heart of the debate? I suspect so. A colleague and I at the outset of the lockdown discussed likely outcomes of this. It seemed obvious to us that the virus would do what viruses generally do! Incredibly simplistic. The chief impact would be on the most vulnerable, as for the rest the sooner infected the better. Simple protection from general immunity. We both have extensive backgrounds in care and support and have personal experience of what infections can do to vulnerable elderly people for example. Infections that a healthy person will simply shrug off becomes lethal for such individuals. Resulting in conditions such as pneumonia and sepsis, and is very common. The absurdity of all this is reflected as the Government tries to ease the lockdown whilst increasing testing. More tests thus more cases and no understanding of the big picture. More over reaction and paranoia, whilst losing sight that we are dealing with an illness that for the vast majority is mild and not close to being life threatening. Most viruses have a broad range of impacts on people and sometimes extreme; take measles as an example.
I forgot to answer your question. YES! I’ve felt such a degree of cognitive dissonance resulting from my interpretation of events & that which politicians & their advisors say (which is often palpable nonsense). So, thank you. I have hope that I’ve not gone mad quite yet!
Just seen this but felt compelled to comment. Yes, I do feel that I am in a minority but no, I don’t feel a huge change in mood since the whole roller coaster started. For me, the Government (not trying to make excuses for it) merely followed the panic that broke out first on social media and then on mainstream media following the events in Italy in particular and to a lesser extent the earlier events in China. Many of the people I connect with on social media continue to be hysterical and even tyrannical about the whole thing, including the use of masks.
Change my friends? Yes but on most other things I happen to like them and agree with them. I also feel that after we have gone through such a traumatic time, nobody is going to admit to being wrong, sadly.
Thanks again to Freddie Sayers for another informative interview regarding Covid. It was Freddie’s memorable interview with Prof Johan Giesecke, back in April, that was my first encounter with Unherd, while I was trying to find out about the Swedish approach. His objective prose and interviewing has been helping to keep me sane ever since.
As he noted in his excellent article “Coronavirus doesn’t care about politics “, scientists are generally pretty good at acknowledging things they don’t know about until they have data and/or evidence to back them up. Politicians and most journalists seem sadly incapable of doing this.
Back in March it was perhaps forgivable to opt for the overcautious approach of a lockdown. However, despite accumulating reliable information from the likes of the ONS demonstrating that the pandemic is far less severe than me might have feared (60,000 excess deaths, including thousands of avoidable cardiac and stroke deaths presumably, versus 50,000 in the 2017/18 flu season – did any of us pay any attention to that?) and that it is predominantly a fatal disease for the elderly, with zero excess deaths in the under 50’s, the political and media classes stick to the same narrative( lethal disease for all of us, no option but lockdown, etc). Even Chris Whitty now acknowledges Carl Heneghan’s observation that deaths started decreasing as a result of measures taken before the full lockdown.
Predictably the media ignore this, to preoccupied with their righteous promotion of face masks as the next great solution for a pandemic that may already have left us, but if it hasn’t and there is a Round 2, surely the solution is to start planning to effectively shield the elderly and vulnerable ( should they choose to do so).
All of this would be laughable if it wasn’t going to have such disastrous consequences for us all.
Adam, it’s fascinating that the mask idea has popped up at this time, as you say including in countries where the virus may be declining. Is this part of some other agenda, i.e. conditioning people to comply? Make them comply to the masks, and encourage the herd to turn on those who don’t conform. Setting the pattern in place for when the fast-tracked experimental vaccine products turn up do you think?
This recent study funded by Bill Gates’ World Health Organisation, and published in the ever-obliging Lancet, could be the basis supporting the recent mask push: Physical distancing, face masks, and eye protection to prevent person-to-person transmission of SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19: a systematic review and meta-analysis. Derek K. Chu et al. Lancet 2020; 395: 1973″“87
I also don’t understand the reasons for wanting mandatory masks at this time. One thought I have is that in Canada they have asked companies that aren’t typically making products like these to step up and make PPE products (masks, gloves, N95 masks etc) and now that these companies have – the governments and health officials want us to support those businesses. They have no scientific evidence for mandatory masks but I also believe it is their way of keeping people afraid so that ‘if’ another wave comes, they will be able to say they were proactive.
The diiference in total number of deaths between a bad and “good” flu year in Sweden is approximately 4,000. Why no test, trace and isolate for flu? Why are lock down proponents so cavalier when it comes to flu deaths? Why don’t we lock down countries every winter season to avoid these flu deaths? Is 4,000 an acceptable death number and 5,600 isn’t?
I could understand a different reaction if you believed a Ferguson Fantasy estimate of 80,000 deaths in Sweden. This was the reason why this whole lockdown saga started. Remember?
Is research being undertaken into whether flu vaccination can impact on coronavirus susceptibility?
Consider for instance the Canadian studies that raised the possibility that receiving a seasonal flu vaccination in the 2008-09 season made it more likely that Canadians would become ill from 2009 pandemic H1N1 flu.[1]
The elderly in particular are encouraged to have annual flu vaccination, e.g. people in aged care facilities, and travellers on cruise ships come to mind…
Could flu vaccination be making people more vulnerable to SARS-CoV-2? Has this been considered in the Swedish context? Flu vaccination for the elderly is in place there I understand, see for example ‘Nurse Gladis leads the way on influenza vaccination in Jonkoping, Sweden’. (I can’t post the link as comments then disappear into ‘pending’…)
Flu vaccination generally is pretty questionable, and Anders Tegnell alludes to this in his interview with Freddie Sayers, i.e. that flu vax isn’t effective in eradicating flu, see around 12:49 – 13:01.
In recent times we have special flu vaccines for the over-65’s that have been “specifically designed to boost the immune response…for this age group”. (This is from an email with advice for seniors in Australia, mentioning Fluad®Quad quadrivalent adjuvanted vaccine.) Could this ‘boosted immune response’ be causing problems?
Flu vaccination is now commonplace around the world. It’s also notable that medical staff are under pressure to get flu vaccines, and it’s been reported that some medical staff have died, associated with COVID-19.
Again, to consider this in regards to repeated annual flu vaccination – the elderly have apparently been the most affected by SARS-CoV-2/COVID 19, could flu vaccination have made them more vulnerable?
References:
1. New Canadian studies suggest seasonal flu shot increased H1N1 risk. CIDRAP. Apr 06, 2010.
This is very interesting, thank you. I read somewhere that the severity of the outbreak in northern Italy may have had something to do with flu vaccinations (especially in the elderly). There is also an example to do with the US army… Something along the lines of a part of the army having the flu vaccination and then being exposed to the virus which cause more soldiers than expected to suffer from cytokine storms. Needless to say, I shall be avoiding the flu vaccinations this autumn and my children will not be getting the nasal spray version which they are offered on the nhs.
https://www.news-medical.ne…
The idea of needing a flu shot every year baffles me. We have an immune system. Let’s strengthen our immune systems, eat well, get exercise, find joy in our lives.
This is a quote from an article in the BMJ, 23 February 2020, by Allan S. Cunningham, retired paediatrician.
“TAMIFLU & INFLUENZA VACCINES: MORE HARM THAN GOOD?
Owen Dyer reminds us that we have spent billions on a drug that possibly does more harm than good. (BMJ 2020;368:m626″February 19) The same thing can be said about influenza vaccines.
We hear so much about the vital importance of flu shots that it will come as a nasty surprise to learn that they increase the risk of illness from noninfluenza virus infections such as rhinoviruses, coronaviruses, RS viruses, parainfluenza viruses, adenoviruses, HMP viruses and enteroviruses. This has been shown in at least two studies that have received little attention from public health authorities: A prospective case-control study in healthy young Australian children found that seasonal flu shots doubled their risk of illness from noninfluenza virus infections (unadjusted OR 2.13, CI 1.20″3.79). Overall, the vaccine increased the risk of virus-associated acute respiratory illness, including influenza, by 73% (OR 1.73, CI 0.99″3.03). (Table 2 in Kelly et al, Pediatr Infect Dis J 2011;30:107)”¦.A randomized placebo-controlled trial in Hong Kong children found that flu shots increased the risk of noninfluenza viral ARIs fivefold (OR 4.91,CI 1.04″8.14) and, including influenza, tripled the overall viral ARI risk (OR 3.17, CI 1.04″9.83). (Table 3 in Cowling et al, Clin Infect Dis 2012;54:1778)”¦..To my knowledge, the foregoing risk figures have not been explicitly published anywhere. They will not be found in the abstracts of the articles, so you have to go to the tables and look at the numbers themselves”.
Thank you so much. I’ve copied your post & sent it to my own mailbox to remind me to follow this up. My wife & I turned 60 this year. While I wouldn’t call it pressure, our doctors surgery is being unusually communicative about flu vaccination. I’m not otherwise at elevated risk, beyond passing this age milestone so probably will decline it this year.
“Influenza vaccination and respiratory virus interference among Department of Defense personnel during the 2017″“2018 influenza season” (https://www.sciencedirect.c…
Among the findings was the following: “Examining non-influenza viruses specifically, the odds of both coronavirus and human metapneumovirus in vaccinated individuals were significantly higher when compared to unvaccinated individuals”.
It has subsequently been stressed that these coronaviruses did not include COVID-19 because it was not in circulation at the time. Nonetheless, it does demonstrate that there is a possibility that the flu vaccine could make people more susceptible to COVID-19.
US studies into influenza vaccination and respiratory virus interference among Department of Defence personnel during the 2017″“2018 influenza season found that: “examining non-influenza viruses specifically, the odds of both coronavirus and human metapneumovirus in vaccinated individuals were significantly higher when compared to unvaccinated individuals” [1]
The author of the study has since stressed that these coronaviruses did not include COVID-19, not least because it was not in circulation at the time.
It would, however, seem to demonstrate that there is a possibility that the flu vaccine could make people more susceptible to COVID-19.
References:
[1] Influenza vaccination and respiratory virus interference among Department of Defense personnel during the 2017″“2018 influenza season. Greg G. Wolff. PDF available from Vaccine Volume 38, Issue 2, 10 January 2020, Pages 350-354
I believe Sweden is on the right track
Given its novelty to the global population at large and the potential overwhelming demands this flu-like virus might initially make on health services, it made perfect, practical sense to try and slow the speed of its inevitable, universal transmission, but to imagine that its spread can somehow be indefinitely stopped really is the height of human hubris.
It was the same path the UK were following until stampeded into panic measures by our hysterical media and a flawed model from Imperial College.
Thanks again to Freddie for another fantastic article summarisingsummarising the key statements from a podcast I would struggle to find the time to listen to in full. Thanks also to the writers of some very well informed and novel ideas in the comments.
I imagine there will be many books written in the not so distant future which summarise the mistakes whi ch led to the many farcical policies we have seen across the globe during this pandemic. I hope that governments and word leaders are held accountable for the consequences of their frankly non sensical response to this pandemic. One which pales in comparison to its predecessors.
Meanwhile in the US, a senator was spotted on a plane removing his mask to drink a coffee which merited an hysterical outburst from the press while the antics of BLM in Portland who appear to be mainly white are encouraged. This epidemic appears to have caused loss of reason as well as lives.
The time for polite debate skirting round the issues of covid-19 procedure is at an end, when it is clear numerous national governments are behaving like dictatorships, with Mr Johnson now threatening to make mask wearing in shops and on public transport (places it is nearly impossible for almost everybody to avoid or they can’t work or survive) last indefinitely, which has mission crept far, far from the original stated goal of “saving lives” or “saving the NHS.”
As the public now hardly has any voice, it is the duty of all journalists to protest about this dictatorship, which will in the final analysis apply to them also, not only the masses, and in which any form of persecution of individuals for things that were not 6 months ago even remotely considered crimes is now possible, with the government now even threatening to enforce glove wearing as well as masks.
Or otherwise, where will this authoritarianism end?
We are being told to wear clothing that millions find repulsive and even is a serious threat to their health and breathing, that is quite likely being enforced by the many thugs always in our midst, who are just looking for an excuse to abuse or use violence against innocent people, and now the government has given it them, and it is reminiscent of the behaviour of the Nazis once they put the mark of identification on the Jews and their business premises, and the new mark as a target of persecution is anybody “caught” refusing to wear a mask.
Not only are we being told what to wear, have our faces forcibly muzzled like dangerous dogs, we are also being told (the measures may be re-enforced at any time) whether we can go out or see our family or friends or have a social or working life, and have been banned from any mass public gathering, entertainment or even religious worship.
No government in a democracy has ever violated public rights and freedom like this, and any journalist who has a public voice who does not protest this, is basically acting like a collaborator with dictatorship just as in Nazi Germany, with thugs now being legitimised by the government to beat up people not wearing face masks even if they have legitimate medical reasons for not doing so, and the police authorities saying they hope non-mask wearers are “shamed” into doing so, which is to promote such mass bullying and intimidation.
Excellent interview. Dr. Tegnell and the Swedish approach is truly based on science and common sense unlike what is happening in the USA. The pandemic and the virus in the USA have been completely politicized and science ignored to promote a political agenda at the expense of the citizens, school children, and the economy.
Oddly enough & also tragically, deaths in care homes have been higher per head of population in Scotland & in Wales than in tyrannically-run England (bad here, too).
It is my opinion based on observations & others opinions that lockdown has had no net beneficial effect whatsoever in the management of this pandemic.
It is also a very interesting observation, that makes sense to explain most of the differences in Europe, and it’s this: there’s an inverse correlation between the sum of excess winter deaths in the last two winters, and the numbers of Covid19 deaths. To Belgium is in the top left, with U.K. & Greece is in the bottom right, near Germany.
I don’t think it’s far enough along to declare NZ ‘successful’. They have little to no population immunity to the virus & I don’t see how they can ever lift their border closures. However, those fatalities avoided are really merely deferred, with the same people succumbing to the next flu season.
what has really mitigated against people being able to get perspective on the number of deaths is the refusal of the media to publish normal mortality figures alongside covid deaths – as euromomo does. if these figures were clearly available it would be clear that the death rate is/was up to 3 times that of a bad flu – but only for a short period. The collateral damage of a global shutdown is going to hurt billions and kill ????? Everyone is in denial that 70 million people die every year normally. I think that a lot of the overreaction is about the wealthy first world’s fear of death per se – not something that the rest of the planet can be in denial about because it is more ‘in their face” . I hope the first world will have the decency to feel guilty about this and give as much funding to the third world ‘train crash’ that they have set in motion with scant regard for others less able to cope – as we have put into propping up the stockmarkets etc etc
Chris, I think you’re on to something with your suggestion “that a lot of the overreaction is about the wealthy first world’s fear of death per se…”
I provided some breakdown of statistics re deaths attributed to Covid-19 in England and Wales in comments on the UnHerd article Covid could become the new common cold. Looking at England and Wales, there were 50,139 death registrations up to 3 July 2020. 42,016 were in the age group 70-90+, i.e. most deaths are of older people.
And yet discussing this matter with others, it’s seen to be callous to suggest an occupational hazard of being elderly is dying. This reluctance to acknowledge the inevitability of death seems irrational to me…we are all going to die.
Ok, people don’t want to die before their time if they can help it. But there was real fear generated about this disease, and that it could result in a horrible death – I’ve seen the worse symptoms described as like near-drowning or gas poisoning. And this seems to be what really frightens people, the prospect of an unpleasant death.
It continues to bewilder me that the effects of this virus are so polarised in people, e.g. many people don’t even know they have it, generally the young, while others are very ill, generally the elderly with co-morbidities.
There’s something very odd about it all…lots of things actually! For example the suggestion that children should be vaccinated with any future fast-tracked experimental coronavirus vaccine products to protect the elderly. I don’t agree with that suggestion and it should be subject to serious ethical scrutiny.
Yep. Western governments might as well go the whole hog and let everyone know they intend to legislate against dying anymore.
Ridiculous.
That some 8 million die on average a year from malnutrition and diseases related to it just about sums up where we are with all this.
The theory of the importance of the numbers of people bringing in the virus to a specific society in relation to the size of later outbreaks is very interesting. Also, besides all the discussions on immunity, I wonder what has been scientificly proven about the fundamental genetic aspects? I’ve read quite a few articles about the genetic makeup of different populations, maybe together with prior immunity, as part explanation to why some coutries fare so much better and are next to Covid-free for example Thailand, Vietnam etc. I Really wonder how much biological conditions in a countrys population influence the outcome? Obesity, higher age, frequency of diabetes for instance but also fundamental factors like blood groups, genes etc. It would be interesting to hear how much they know about this so far.
Anders Tegnell says “…we understand better what we need to do in our long-term care facilities and so on to keep the disease out of there…” (12:13.)
Can Dr Tegnell please pass on some advice to care facilities in Australia, particularly Victoria?
These are the headlines we’re seeing here:
Aged care in Victoria is looming as a coronavirus disaster – brace for it to get worse. ABC News, 25 July 2020.
Victoria’s Covid-19 aged care disaster: ‘this virus is like a fire out of control’. The Guardian, 25 July 2020.
St Basil’s aged care workers raise infection control concerns. The Age, 23 July 2020.
It’s been known for months that elderly people and aged care facilities are the most at risk – why haven’t they targeted efforts effectively?
I am thrilled to have discovered this set of interviews focused on the Covid pandemic. I am a physicist, and so am trained to observe the world and its workings in a very evidence-based way, making use of the tools of the scientific method. Politically I am left of center. For the past five months I’ve felt essentially “homeless.” My growing skepticism with mainstream media coverage and discussion of the pandemic, along with concern with how politicized the discussion has become, has made me a stranger in my very progressive university town in the US. A strong herd mentality has taken over, whereby my views are quickly labeled as Trump-friendly, when nothing can be further from the truth.
I would love to see interviews with a few of the academics and scientists in the US who seem to be the “go-to” experts dominating all discourse in center-left outlets (such as the New York Times): Michael Osterholm, Linsey Marr, etc. Natalie Dean is another example, and I enjoyed the UnHerd interview with her.
Could you please speak to someone from one of the Central European countries who manages the strategy there? Why have there been so few deaths so far? Is it because:
1) the strain of the virus was rather benign
2) the arrival of the virus was just from one source and the lockdowns prevented arrival of many strains at the same time that might have contributed to high death toll in the UK for instance
3) is it because there is a clear separation of the contagious disease hospitals from the rest of the health service?
4) is it the demographics, lower population density and higher “health literacy” among the population? Still cities like Budapest, Berlin, Prague or Warsaw shouldn’t be much different than Stockholm?
5) widespread, obligatory tb inoculations among the populations?
6) much more serious tracking and tracing?
7) are these countries more vulnerable to future waves due to low contact with the virus in their populations?
Honestly don’t know but almost certainly natural rather than Big Brother, a natural immunity due to previous exposure to similar cold virus would be my favourite. Same with the far east
Does anybody remember GSK and Patrick Vallance’s Pandemrix influenzas vaccine? Worth a look before we are forced to take whatever it is they’re developing now.
Commercial interests seeking looking to stoke fear for profit?
Surely not.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go…
Update from Australia…
Victoria is now the pariah state with its outbreak of cases…
Here’s a sample of some of the coverage – from The Australian article: Death and dismay as longer lockdown looms
The deadliest day in Australia’s coronavirus pandemic and another sharp rise in infections in Victoria have increased doubts Melbourne’s six-week lockdown will end on time in a potential blow to the national economic recovery.
Premier Daniel Andrews said he could not guarantee the state’s second lockdown would finish in six weeks after the state recorded 10 deaths and another 459 new coronavirus infections, its second highest rate of infections since the pandemic began.
An angry Mr Andrews savaged residents who were failing to use masks or comply with other health orders.
“This is not about human rights,” he said. “There are 10 families that are going to be burying someone in the next few days. Wear a mask ” it’s not too much to ask.”
71 coronavirus COVID-19 deaths are now recorded in total in Victoria. There’s no detail about these deaths on the Victorian Department of Health Coronavirus website, no information about ages or comorbidities. It’s all about tests and cases.
There’s much pressure to wear masks in Melbourne, I haven’t seen any evidence that backs this. My suspicion is this is behaviour training, and the community is being stirred up to police mask wearing, with much peer pressure to conform.
Agreed! Victoria has turned into a Totalitarian state of the worst kind and I beg to disagree with Dictator Dan. This most definitely is an abuse of human rights. For what!?! The bug is clearly not a mass killer. 10 deaths in a day. Truly to lose a loved one is very sad and I feel for the bereaved, but in a city of 5 million, are those the really the only deaths that happened on that day? Or are they the only ones that matter. I gather the social media mill is yowling for more extreme measures – no exercise and only allowed out to buy food or medicine. My heart can only bleed for the people who don’t buy into all this lunacy and are denied basic human rights like breathing fresh air when they go for a walk or interacting freely with their families and friends? Wearing a fetid face rag everytime you step out the door, or being locked up in isolation will have minimal or no impact. It is social bullying run riot and I am appalled.
This whole situation is bizarre…
‘The virus’ is mainly affecting elderly people. If ‘the authorities’ are genuine about protecting elderly people and the vulnerable, they should be working on effective strategies to do that.
It’s a shambles here in Australia, in particular in Victoria. We now seem to have morphed into an elimination strategy, so much for ‘flattening the curve’. Apparently ‘cases’ are ‘surging’ in Victoria, and it’s mostly elderly people who are dying.
There have been 161 deaths in Australia attributed to COVID-19 – 139 of these deaths in the age group 70-90+. Australia’s population is 25.5 million.
They’ve known for months now who is at risk, but have they concentrated on that area?
No, instead there’s all this focus on fear-mongering and testing of the general population – as of now, they’ve conducted 3,987,090 tests in Australia, and ‘positive tests’ amount to 0.4%.[1]
What is the point of all this testing?!?! Anyone with a sniffle is feeling duty bound to go off and have a test – it would be much better if they simply stayed home if they feel sick! So many resources are being spent on this, not to mention people sick with respiratory illnesses wandering around for testing, when they should be at home.
And if you’re tested today, who’s to say you won’t have it in a few days, although apparently unlikely at the moment with that low positive result rate.
Are they causing damage by hindering the spread of the virus? Ok, have some social distancing, but wouldn’t it be better to let this virus spread among those who are unlikely to be too adversely affected, i.e. most people?
In Melbourne now, the Premier, Dan Andrews, is insisting everyone wear a mask whenever they leave the house, which isn’t too often as they’re back in lockdown. Andrews said: “It’s a relatively simple thing but it’s also about embedding behaviour which I think is just as important on the other side of this second wave as it is in bringing these case numbers down…”[2] (My emphasis.)
“it’s also about embedding behaviour”?!?!? Is this about making people compliant, so they will be ready to comply when the fast-tracked experimental vaccines show up?
Some ‘expert’ says Victoria might be locked out of the rest of Australia for two years, unless lockdown measures are followed. University of Melbourne Professor Tony Blakely suggests if Victoria doesn’t get rid of this virus “it will have to function in isolation from the rest of Australia until such time as we get a vaccine”.[3]
It’s all about the vaccine… For this virus that isn’t a problem for most people.
There is so much to expose about this scandal, so many conflicts of interest.
References:
1. Australian Government Department of Health Coronavirus (COVID-19) webpage.
2. Coronavirus Australia: masks the new reality in Melbourne Covid cover-up, The Australian, 20 July 2020.
3. Victoria’s coronavirus cases could isolate the state and lead to Stage 4, expert warns. 7 News, 23 July 2020.
It is more than bizarre Elizabeth – there’s a lunacy here that is deeply concerning. This is exposing the fundamental flaw in us, the populace of this planet. We can rationalise the absurd and convince our ourselves the truth of it to fit whatever we choose to believe. Akin to Satre’s concept of ‘bad faith’, a lie in the unity of a single consciousness. Well out of context, yet so germane. I genuinely fear for the future of us all for the first time in my life. Always been an optimist, but the pure negation of logic regarding covid is astounding and beyond the realms of the rational.
Governments that have inflicted massive economic damage on their own countries need to convince their voters that it was all done for sound, logical reasons. As more & more evidence suggests Governments across the world over-reacted on a massive scale, needlessly condemning their populations to a future of debt, those same Governments are now doing their utmost to justify their actions by ‘proving’ how dangerous and ongoing this killer disease is. Undoubtedly COVID-19 posed a threat, but it seems much of that had to do with a lack of preparedness and health systems getting overloaded. Countries that were prepared have managed far better. Others, such as Sweden, have been more honest in their approach from day one and therefore do not need to scare their population by talking up the ‘threat’ going forward.
If you have anything even approaching a vaguely enquiring mind then this 2009 published study on influenza and its various causes and effects in the US from 1900 to 2004 might prove to be extremely enlightening.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go…
Why is there a race for coronavirus vaccine products?
Consider Anders Tegnell’s comments: “I don’t think this is a disease that we can eradicate, not with the methods we have in place right now. It might be a disease in the long term that we can eradicate with a vaccine, but I’m not even sure about that. I mean, if you look at comparable diseases spread wise like the flu and many other respiratory viruses, we are not even close to eradicating them, in spite of that we have a vaccine in place. I personally believe that this is a disease that we’re going to have to learn to live with. And exactly how it’s going to be spread in the future, we’ll have to see how much we can restrict that by vaccinating maybe especially vulnerable population if you have a good vaccine in place, and how we can limit the death toll and so on by better treatments than we have today. I think that’s a more likely long-term scenario than we can actually get rid of this virus forever. So that’s never really been a clear goal. We want to suppress it as much as possible with the measures we have in place, especially to protect our health care system.” (My emphasis.) (See 12:40-13:45)
With the virus apparently waning in some countries now, why interfere in this process with fast-tracked experimental vaccine products? Because Bill Gates is determined to lead the race for coronavirus vaccines…?
See what the software billionaire and vaccine guru has to say in this interview: Multiple vaccine doses could be necessary to protect from coronavirus, Bill Gates says. CBSN, 23 July 2020.
How did Bill Gates become the ‘go to’ person on international vaccination policy and practice?
Re my comment above quoting Anders Tegnell, carefully consider what he’s saying.
He says: “…It might be a disease in the long term that we can eradicate with a vaccine, but I’m not even sure about that. I mean, if you look at comparable diseases spread wise like the flu and many other respiratory viruses, we are not even close to eradicating them, in spite of that we have a vaccine in place…”. (12:47-13:05)
Flu vaccines, just think of all the flu vaccines that are given every year, of very questionable value. How did this happen, a vaccine pressed upon the community every year for the ever-mutating flu?
Initially, in Australia for instance, seasonal flu vaccination was recommended for individuals at risk of complications or death from influenza, e.g. the elderly.[1]
But over the years it’s become apparent flu vaccination isn’t very effective in the elderly.[2] But flu vaccination is still recommended for the elderly, and just about everyone else now, including children.[3]
In fact, it seems children are now being vaccinated for flu to protect the elderly…and it’s being proposed that children and others should be vaccinated against ‘Covid-19’ to protect the elderly…
Anders Tegnell suggests the vulnerable will be vaccinated against the coronavirus, he says: “…we’ll have to see how much we can restrict that by vaccinating maybe especially vulnerable population”. (13:14-13:20)
But it appears others have other plans – consider this from The Guardian:
Covid-19 vaccine may not work for at-risk older people, say scientists – Lords committee told children may have to be immunised to protect their grandparents
A vaccine against Covid-19 may not work well in older people who are most at risk of becoming seriously ill and dying from the disease, say scientists, which may mean immunising others around them, such as children.
Prof Peter Openshaw, from Imperial, one of the members of the UK’s Sage scientific advisory sub-group Nervtag, told the House of Lords science and technology committee it was this week considering a paper on targeting different groups in the population with vaccines.
“Sometimes it is possible to protect a vulnerable group by targeting another group and this, for example, is being done with influenza,” he said. “In the past few years, the UK has been at the forefront of rolling out the live attenuated vaccine for children.”
Giving the nasal spray flu vaccine to children who do not often get severe flu protects their grandparents, he said. Immunising health and care workers ““ who are likely to be the first to get the vaccine ““ would also help protect older people who have the most contact with them…
Just think about the ethics of this…is it ethical to vaccinate children, and other young people, to protect the elderly?
References:
1. Significant events in influenza vaccination practice in Australia, NCIRS fact sheet, last updated July 2020.
2. See for example MMWR: Current flu vaccine does not protect elderly, 15 February 2018 on MDedge Clinical Outcomes.
3. Clinical update: 2020 seasonal influenza vaccines – early advice for vaccination providers. Australian Government Department of Health, 2 March 2020.
Re my comment above quoting Anders Tegnell, carefully consider what he’s saying.
He says: “…It might be a disease in the long term that we can eradicate with a vaccine, but I’m not even sure about that. I mean, if you look at comparable diseases spread wise like the flu and many other respiratory viruses, we are not even close to eradicating them, in spite of that we have a vaccine in place…”. (12:47-13:05)
Flu vaccines, just think of all the flu vaccines that are given every year, of very questionable value. How did this happen, a vaccine pressed upon the community every year for the ever-mutating flu?
Initially, in Australia for instance, seasonal flu vaccination was recommended for individuals at risk of complications or death from influenza, e.g. the elderly.[1]
But over the years it’s become apparent flu vaccination isn’t very effective in the elderly.[2] But flu vaccination is still recommended for the elderly, and just about everyone else now, including children.[3]
In fact, it seems children are now being vaccinated for flu to protect the elderly…and it’s being proposed that children and others should be vaccinated against ‘Covid-19’ to protect the elderly…
Anders Tegnell suggests the vulnerable will be vaccinated against the coronavirus, he says: “…we’ll have to see how much we can restrict that by vaccinating maybe especially vulnerable population”. (13:14-13:20)
But it appears others have other plans – consider this from The Guardian:
Covid-19 vaccine may not work for at-risk older people, say scientists – Lords committee told children may have to be immunised to protect their grandparents
A vaccine against Covid-19 may not work well in older people who are most at risk of becoming seriously ill and dying from the disease, say scientists, which may mean immunising others around them, such as children.
Prof Peter Openshaw, from Imperial, one of the members of the UK’s Sage scientific advisory sub-group Nervtag, told the House of Lords science and technology committee it was this week considering a paper on targeting different groups in the population with vaccines.
“Sometimes it is possible to protect a vulnerable group by targeting another group and this, for example, is being done with influenza,” he said. “In the past few years, the UK has been at the forefront of rolling out the live attenuated vaccine for children.”
Giving the nasal spray flu vaccine to children who do not often get severe flu protects their grandparents, he said. Immunising health and care workers ““ who are likely to be the first to get the vaccine ““ would also help protect older people who have the most contact with them…
Just think about the ethics of this…is it ethical to vaccinate children, and other young people, to protect the elderly?
References:
1. Significant events in influenza vaccination practice in Australia, NCIRS fact sheet, last updated July 2020.
2. See for example MMWR: Current flu vaccine does not protect elderly, 15 February 2018 on MDedge Clinical Outcomes.
3. Clinical update: 2020 seasonal influenza vaccines – early advice for vaccination providers. Australian Government Department of Health, 2 March 2020.
I’ve left another comment with more discussion about Anders Tegnell’s interview – but it’s gone to spam?
From a Bloomberg report:
As other countries face renewed outbreaks, Sweden’s latest Covid-19 figures suggest it’s rapidly bringing the virus under control.
“That Sweden has come down to these levels is very promising,” state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell told reporters in Stockholm on Tuesday.
The Health Agency of Sweden says that since hitting a peak in late June, the infection rate has fallen sharply. That’s amid an increase in testing over the period. “The curves are going down and the curves for the seriously ill are beginning to approach zero,” Tegnell said.
And on masks:
Tegnell also broached the subject of face masks, which the World Health Organization recommends people use when social distancing isn’t possible.
“With numbers diminishing very quickly in Sweden, we see no point in wearing a face mask in Sweden, not even on public transport,” he said.
Tegnell has consistently argued that Sweden’s approach is more sustainable than the sudden lockdowns imposed elsewhere. With the risk that Covid-19 might be around for years, he says completely shutting down society isn’t a long-term option.
See: Sweden Unveils ‘Promising’ Covid-19 Data as New Cases Plunge. Bloomberg, 29 July 2020
A voice of reason? Now that we are seeing the effects of easing lockdowns in various countries he may have reason to feel smug. Do not expect him to as he seems too grounded for that. Times are a changing! Ironic given Bob has just released a new album.
The Australian prime minister has now informed Australians that coronvirus vaccination will be compulsory in Australia, see ‘Scott Morrison expects a successful coronavirus vaccine would be mandatory in Australia’, ABC 19 August 2020.
My reading of the Biosecurity Act 2015 indicates people who refuse vaccination could be at risk of five years imprisonment and/or a $63,000 fine.
Things are getting pretty grim in this so-called ‘liberal democracy’…
Similar things are happening in New Zealand…
Simply chilling – we have a journalist over here called Peter Hitchens who predicted this at the outset, evoking ideas of the police state and rampant infringement of human rights – I thought a tad ludicrous. How wrong I was.
I must admit first: I admire Anders Tegnell. To stand alone against the rest of Europe and the prevailing consensus takes the kind of stamina and gravitas the current European leaders lack.
That being said, factually Sweden has one big advantage: the population is not as scared as everywhere else. It will be much easier to get back to normal, and the detrimental effects in society will wane quicker. Everywhere else, people are so afraid, it will make things difficult for years to come. He has, probably unwittingly, done his people a great favor.
Also, take a look at https://adamaltmejd.se/covid/
This thing ist basically over in Sweden anyways.
Back in April, there was a lot of talk about low oxygen levels being a very effective early warning sign for Covid 19.
Curious if anyone knows why it was never brought up again?
I have twice attempted to link to a fascinating and revealing piece of American research on influenza from 2009 tracing its history from 1900 to 2004 and twice it has been removed by Disqus with immediate effect.
Are links simply not allowed, or is there a procedure that one must follow?
Yes, I have the same problem, insert a link and your comment goes off to pending/spam… A shame really when you want to back your argument with evidence/sources. I provide the title of the article or whatever so people can search for it themselves.
Agreed.
It looks from below like Disqus might have finally let through though. Yay!!
The link is from the American Journal of Public Health. It is all the more interesting given its extremely lucid observations regarding flu were written over 10 years ago.
Well worth a look.
A fascinating read! I’m constantly and almost daily amazed by all the info uncovered, which contradicts that which media and govt. peddle.
One very insightful quote:
“It is also important to recognize that commercial interests may be inflating the perceived impact of influenza and other infectious “pandemics.””
Not exactly a bombshell is it?
Nothing coming along on this subject has been peer reviewed like that study to any great extent, not least because there hasn’t been time to do so.
Our dear old BBC even attempted to put a positive spin on apparent Covid deaths yesterday saying that the actual flu death rate in Australia (which is currently in peak flu season by the way) had fallen by 90%!!
It’s a miracle!!
This was attributed by the WHO guy in Melbourne to the fact that ‘superspreader’ (my word, not his) kids weren’t allowed to go to school during months of lockdown and social interaction has apparently become all but socially unacceptable.
Yay!!
I’ve left another comment that has gone off into spam too…
As always, I think Mr. Tegnell was persuasive. In the end the Swedish approach is going to win out. From the perspective of NYC in USA, their approach is much better than our own (Foudation for Economic Education https://fee.org/articles/wh…, which has stalled the economy and terrorized the American people, while they have excellent numbers and didn’t hurt their economy (Financial Times https://www.ft.com/content/…. The American media continues to make unsupported claims about the Swedish COVID-19 response (Globalization and Health: Misinformation and de-contextualization: international media reporting on Sweden and COVID-19 (https://globalizationandhea… but I think that in the next couple of weeks the numbers will speak for themselves and we will have to re-evaluate our near-religious national devotion to our health Tsar, Dr. Anthony Fauci and his belief that overreaction is a virtue (The Hill https://thehill.com/homenew….
I’m pretty ambivalent about the long term effectiveness of lockdowns, the more I see the global data. But I have a question about what Tegnell said about the initial surge of cases in Sweden:
He says if you have a massive introduction of the virus-as Sweden did after people returned from holiday travel -it’s hard to control. But couldn’t a lockdown during this surge, have slowed down case escalation & deaths anyway?
Wouldn’t it have at least have allowed the high number of those with cases to recover and not spread? And then they could have eased restriction and continued the social distancing protocol, allowing herd immunity over time?
Even though many died due to bad aged care management (as in other countries)- and not so much in the general population – couldn’t you say less elderly would have died if that spike had been more controlled?
How can protecting the elderly in homes & vulnerable people in the population be done successfully? Is PPE in aged care and hospitals to stop spread within an institution 100% effective?. Are there COVID specific areas of hospitals etc? And logistically, how can we protect vulnerable people who live outside of care homes and/or live with healthy people who aren’t locking down & may infect them.
I suppose these questions apply to all countries, but I’m trying to understand why a situation of density spread as happened in Sweden is considered beyond control through a lockdown.
Very good questions.You filtered out the politcs and went straight to the point. Because this is gonna happen again and how do we prepare.
.
As for your first question, the massive introduction (mainly in Stockholm) of the virus happened in several countries (i.e the UK, Belgium) who did lock down.
On the other hand Finland did a quick lock down of the Helsinki region. Then opened the schools pretty quickly. Sweden could have done the same, closing down Stockholm i guess.
Personally, i think it is confusing with regional differences in rules. The measures wouldnt have had the same massive impact imo.
Relevant to this matter, here’s my rapid response published in The BMJ on 13 July 2020:
Looking at Sweden, COVID-19 and vitamin D…
Most of the reported COVID-19 deaths in Sweden are in the elderly – is there a problem with vitamin D deficiency in this age group?
Latest reported deaths in Sweden are 5,526 (pop. 10.23 million), with 1,428 deaths in people over 90. 2,300 deaths are reported for people in the age group 80-90. So that’s 3,728 of the deaths. Then there are reportedly 1,194 deaths in the age group 70-79. That’s 4,922 deaths across the age group 70 to over 90. There are 379 deaths reported across the ages 60-69. And 156 deaths in the age group 50-59. With a total of 69 deaths across the ages of 0-49 years.[1]
So most of the deaths are in the elderly age group 70 to 90, i.e. 4,922 deaths, people who are also likely to have comorbidities.
Some previous studies have identified vitamin D deficiency in Swedish nursing homes, see for example “Vitamin D deficiency was common among nursing home residents and associated with dementia: a cross sectional study of 545 Swedish nursing home residents”[2], and “Vitamin D deficiency in elderly people in Swedish nursing homes is associated with increased mortality”[3].
Considering Sweden as a whole, it seems most of the population remains alive and not adversely affected by SARS-CoV-2 in the prime of their lives. Perhaps Sweden has made the right decision not to grossly disrupt its society and the lives of millions of people with draconian lockdowns?
Internationally, the focus now should be on finding effective treatments and strategies for the sick, i.e. generally elderly people. And recommending long-term practical preventive measures for the population generally, to reduce the prospect of the illnesses which exacerbate the effects of the SARS-CoV-2 virus, and enhance health, e.g. promoting optimum vitamin D levels.
References:
1. As at 10 July 2020 on the Statista webpage: Number of coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths in Sweden in 2020, by age groups
2. Arnljots, R., Thorn, J., Elm, M. et al. Vitamin D deficiency was common among nursing home residents and associated with dementia: a cross sectional study of 545 Swedish nursing home residents. BMC Geriatr 17, 229 (2017).
3. Maria Samefors et al. Vitamin D deficiency in elderly people in Swedish nursing homes is associated with increased mortality. European Journal of Endocrinology. May 2014. 170:5, 667-675.
25 doctors and scientists from Sweden have just said: “Sweden hoped herd immunity would curb COVID-19. Don’t do what we did. It’s not working.”. Pointing out that Sweden’s per capita death toll is 4.5 times higher than that of their Nordic neighbours, yet less than 10% of the population are estimated to carry antibodies: https://eu.usatoday.com/sto…
Thank you so much Freddy for keeping us sane and bringing us informative rational discussions at a time when so many people seem to have turned into sheeple! It would be great if you are able to get an immunologist or appropriate alternative to discuss this recent German study which seems to indicate that T-cells are far more important in fighting CoVID infections than antibodies. And that the vast majority (81%) of us already have T-cells from previous cold or animal coronaviruses that cross react with SARS-2 and can therefore probably offer at least some immunity against it. People that had COVID mildly had no or few antibodies but lots of T-cells and a lot of T-cell diversity. Conversely, those who had it severely had few T-cells or fewer types and far more antibodies: SARS-CoV-2 T-cell epitopes define heterologous and Covid-19 induced T-cell recognition found at 10.21203/rs.3.rs-35331/v1
It looks as if everyone is finding stats to suit there own argument here. Some of the stats are very questionable and I don’t know where the idea that UK infections peaked end March came from. There were two peaks in daily infections between Early / mid April and early May.
As for Sweden, their planning and strategy seems about as good and bad as many countries. Sweden wil, suffer economically and it will contract this year. The best that can be said is that it could be the best of a bad bunch of European economies. Whether or not the main hit will come from the simple fact that world economy and trading has and will suffer massively ( causing shutdowns and downturns in Sweden) or from domestic downturns I don’t know – probably both.
As for its death rate ! Well like the UK and others it’s criminal that the vulnerable weren’t and aren’t better protected .
The number of deaths and infections per capita is amongst the highest in the world – higher than the USA for Christ’s sake. It’s economy will suffer whether it likes it or not. Was if worth losing lives in order to keep cafes and restaurants open?
Lets face it, other than New Zealand and some Asian countries, no country has handled the pandemic well and all Governments should undertake a period of serious soul searching and reflection – plus of course recognising their mistakes.
Actually, the NHS E&W (supported by Scots NHS) data confirm that the peak of “deaths with CV19” was 8th April, and all regions had peaked within 3 days of that. Thereafter dramatic decline in daily deaths occurred. This means that infections leading to deaths were already declining dramatically before lockdown. No question.
Not something you’ll find discussed much in the MSM, or indeed by Freddie.
IMHO you are quoting the wrong data. “Peak of infection on the basis of tests” is not the correct way of looking at it. This is because number of positive CV19 cases detected appears to be proportional to number of tests conducted. Since testing was ramped up dramatically in late April and especially late May – remember when HMG was blustering about 100k tests per day – and it since increased further. Test more and you will find more…
So forget positive cases, unless you correct them for the number of tests conducted and give a value of “positive CV19 cases per 100 tests conducted”
Sadly, deaths are the only true stat of great use if the baseline number of tests varies… Unfortunately for the dead (RIP)
And it appears that the inevitable had already happened, and it’s therefore highly arguable that lockdown did not actually change the CV19 outcome (but massively changed normality and future mortality).
Well, that would be true if: the NHS didn’t learn how to treat patients in ways which reduced mortality – which it did, and if it was exactly the same population type that was infected over the duration – peaks of care and nursing home deaths skewed mortality rates enormously . lookIng at NHS PHE stats I see quite clearly that infections continued to rise and peak. The fall in deaths was due to 2 things: hospitals learning how to reduce the chance of death and a decline in the number of care home deaths.
You could well be completely correct. We won’t know for some time. If I may respectfully say I doubt we’ve got any better at saving many from the cohort that is killed swiftly by this virus. We’ve probably stopped accidentally killing saveable people, for example with much less use of mechanical ventilation. Care home deaths have fallen, but I don’t think we can be sure why this is. I’m sceptical that human interventions have much altered the course of this pandemic.
Well said. Not only did lockdown NOT ‘turn the tide’, but something else did.
Because lockdown has a kind of protected status, one is at least a Nazi for questioning its efficacy & lack of unwanted effects. So it’s left unchallenged. Shame, as it probably did next to no good yet has broken so much In society.
Worse, we can’t discuss the real reason the infection moved from a high & positive R to one less than 1.0. And this makes it impossible to learn for the next time. Which will be along soon, I expect.
As a New Zealander, I think it’s a complete myth that NZ handled the pandemic well. If the correct strategy was to eliminate, then it could have been achieved easily by controlling our border early, and having no lockdown. But our Government was far too slow to do that. They then panicked, and imposed the wrecking ball lockdown that will leave our economy in tatters for years, with all of its financial and health consequences. In Sweden they can have an adult debate about it. You can’t in New Zealand.
David, you say: “It looks as if everyone is finding stats to suit there own argument here.”
So you’re dubious about the stats? You’re not on your own. See for example Dr Malcolm Kendrick’s recent blog post Covid fear – Why the scaremongering about COVID?
He says: To be honest I have known something very strange has been going on with the UK data for some time…”
Check it out on his website.
Thanks for signposting Dr. Kendrick. Just checked his site as recommended. Would encourage others to do the same.
‘The emphasis on spread of the virus to the exclusion of everything else Dr Tegnell believes is misguided, as the number of cases is less and less correlated to the number of deaths.’ Surely this is the key point? Whether one believes in herd immunity or not for this virus, surely the approach taken should be targeted according to the risk of harm to those who might be affected/infected. Hence the https://greenbandredband.com approach. Analyse your risk. Communicate to others. Respect each other’s assessment. Easy!
Re my comment below quoting Anders Tegnell, carefully consider what he’s saying.
He says: “…It might be a disease in the long term that we can eradicate with a vaccine, but I’m not even sure about that. I mean, if you look at comparable diseases spread wise like the flu and many other respiratory viruses, we are not even close to eradicating them, in spite of that we have a vaccine in place…“. (12:47-13:05)
Flu vaccines, just think of all the flu vaccines that are given every year, of very questionable value. How did this happen, a vaccine pressed upon the community every year for the ever-mutating flu?
Initially, in Australia for instance, seasonal flu vaccination was recommended for individuals at risk of complications or death from influenza, e.g. the elderly.[1]
But over the years it’s become apparent flu vaccination isn’t very effective in the elderly.[2] But flu vaccination is still recommended for the elderly, and just about everyone else now, including children.[3]
In fact, it seems children are now being vaccinated for flu to protect the elderly…and it’s being proposed that children and others should be vaccinated against ‘Covid-19’ to protect the elderly…
Anders Tegnell suggests the vulnerable will be vaccinated against the coronavirus, he says: “…we’ll have to see how much we can restrict that by vaccinating maybe especially vulnerable population”. (13:14-13:20)
But it appears others have other plans – consider this from The Guardian:
Covid-19 vaccine may not work for at-risk older people, say scientists – Lords committee told children may have to be immunised to protect their grandparents
A vaccine against Covid-19 may not work well in older people who are most at risk of becoming seriously ill and dying from the disease, say scientists, which may mean immunising others around them, such as children.
Prof Peter Openshaw, from Imperial, one of the members of the UK’s Sage scientific advisory sub-group Nervtag, told the House of Lords science and technology committee it was this week considering a paper on targeting different groups in the population with vaccines.
“Sometimes it is possible to protect a vulnerable group by targeting another group and this, for example, is being done with influenza,” he said. “In the past few years, the UK has been at the forefront of rolling out the live attenuated vaccine for children.”
Giving the nasal spray flu vaccine to children who do not often get severe flu protects their grandparents, he said. Immunising health and care workers ““ who are likely to be the first to get the vaccine ““ would also help protect older people who have the most contact with them…
Just think about the ethics of this…is it ethical to vaccinate children, and other young people, to protect the elderly?
References:
1. Significant events in influenza vaccination practice in Australia, NCIRS fact sheet, last updated July 2020.
2. See for example MMWR: Current flu vaccine does not protect elderly, 15 February 2018 on MDedge Clinical Outcomes.
3. Clinical update: 2020 seasonal influenza vaccines – early advice for vaccination providers. Australian Government Department of Health, 2 March 2020.
Great Interview. What about interviewing Colin Mayer of
Saïd Business School. He seems to say some interesting things
Time to have a close look at the pandemic preparedness simulations, e.g. Event 201 held in October 2019, and also check out this article: ‘Two decades of pandemic war games failed to account for Donald Trump’ in Scientific American.
From where I’m standing, a new virus is a huge business opportunity…tests, medications, vaccines, masks…etc, etc…
While many suffer in oppressive lockdown, others reap rich rewards… Just think of all those hastily cobbled together multi-billion dollar vaccine contracts being signed now, some people are going to make a motza out of this, whether a vaccine ever eventuates or not…
Seems this virus has been made to fit the bill for a massive over-reaction – is this really the way it should have been handled?
What appears to be seriously lacking is independent and objective infectious diseases specialists to consider the best course of action, does such a being exist? Perhaps Anders Tegnell fits the bill?
Unfortunately, it looks like this area of public health has been hijacked by the vaccine industry and it’s acolytes in academia and the medical establishment, with the wholehearted support of governments and the corporate media.
It’s the medical industrial complex gone mad, and it’s having very serious repercussions for our political systems, i.e. the undermining of liberal democracy with encroaching medical tyranny.
It seems Tegnell is one of those chaps who declares himself a success without first explaining clearly by what criteria success is to be judged.
I don’t think that’s a fair comment. I recall he said he’d prefer assessment when the outcome is better perceived. One year away, for example. He’s admitted errors, but also some worthwhile advantages from their strategy.
He is forthright in stating that acquisition of a degree of population immunity is playing an important role in bringing down the death rate. As he rightly says “nothing else has changed”. I think that’s probably almost the whole explanation for the steady reduction in daily deaths in U.K. as well. After all, nothing much else has changed, except things which if anything should make things worse,
There are various theories about reducing death rates and all remain theories. A great deal has changed though. There has been a massive change in social behaviour and a vast reduction in certain kinds of public contact. The best explanation of declining death rates is actually not some hooky theory about some magic unidentified variety of T-cell but the effect upon the temporal network via which CV-19 is spread of temporary immunity via infection having been acquired by a lot of the most capricious and susceptible contacts plus a big reduction in the number of nodes through behaviour changes. If behaviour were to revert to its previous state, a lot of the nodes would “switch back on”, re-accelerating infection rates. We’re seeing this happen in a number of countries which have re-opened too soon and/or without appropriate measures continuing to be taken.
If the MSM, the WHO and CDC (Fauci and Tedros Adhoman) weren’t so corrupt, there wouldn’t be any need to lock healthy down people, no need to crash an economy, no need to separate grandparent from their families, no need for this draconian mind torture etc.
They all knew all along that Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc killed this virus, (as does a common steroid inhaler) but they deliberately hid it from the public, aided and abetted by the criminal media, who claimed it would produce heart attacks.. They knew as far back as 2011 how effective it was.
‘ Obviously there is also quite a big part of the population that has
other kinds of immunity and T Cell immunity is the one that is most
likely.’
Doktor ‘Do Nothing’ Tegnell knows this because…….?
Because of the research done by the doctor interviewed here. https://unherd.com/thepost/…
Lee – Did you watch the interview with Dr. Soo Aleman? She goes into the T-cell immunity issue. Also, the drastically falling rates in areas that had major breakouts but have antibody tests coming in around 20% is leading many immunologists to think something else is at play, maybe involving T-cells.
So Tegnell watched it ?
With so little testing, he certainly didn’t derive the idea for himself.
Maybe he read the research! We can all do it with a very simple google search.
But this is not the problem really is it? It is becoming VERY clear that the evidence that countries totally mishandled this is mounting. The growing T-cell research makes masks, social distancing and vaccines clearly unnecessary. The voices of experts who screamed from the start that lockdown was unnecessary are now being vindicated. More people are realising this is a grand mistake with consquences that will kill millions as economic consequences kick in and the inevitible suicides, starvation, death from deprevation, death from cancer etc all start to rise (they already are by the way).
Some people cannot cope with being wrong and now resort to smart a.. comments and condescending posts. Such people need to hang their heads in shame because a more open debate from the start would have uncovered the truth long ago . Instead it was buried by the media pampering to a rabid brainwashed mask loving public.
Boom. Yes Malcolm, 100%. Debate, data and scrutiny have all be conspicuously censored at times during this pandemic. This is definitively unscientific, and yet we are all told to “follow the science”.
I think it is you that has been screaming from the start.
And what would you do Lee? Please cite your research when offering an effective counter-argument.
My point was that Sweden has done v little testing and Tegnell’s plan has been to do nothing.
He is hardly entitled to then use the research that others have done.
It’s been studied & reported in three countries (Germany, Sweden & maybe Spain) out of good labs that 30-50% of their populations have T cells capable of responding specifically to this new virus, despite never having seen it before, for reasons with which you’re no doubt familiar.
We also have lab data in the other points he mentioned: that a fraction of the infected population clear the virus without seroconverting so show no antibodies.
As a swede I am geuninely frightened by this man, he takes pride in having led a nation to highly infected population because this man still seek the infamous “herd immunity”. He wont say it out loud because of the huge controversy about it.
Back in february he boldly denied that the Covid19 virus would even come to Sweden, he said that few, if any, would die if it came to Sweden so every swede should be calm, was his argument. He also said that Covid19 was not worse than the seasonal flu.
This man has been wrong on every occasion but what is worse is his rejection of science, rejection of facts and refusal to admit fault.
He has been refusing to include face masks since the getgo and even to this day, where majority of nations have implemented it, this guy refuse. Even when WHO and EU call on nations to use facial masks, this guy simply say: No we should not include that, this guy is worse than Trump with his denialism and egoism!
While Sweden now is on the #7 in the world index ranking of deaths per capita, just below Italy, he have the audacity to claim his strategy is working! He have absolutely zero respect for the decesased and long time affected swedes from Covid19. Its like it could pass away another 5000 swedes, 10000 swedes and so on and he would respond the same.
He is extremely callous and indifferent to the deaths that is going on in front of him every day. Its like he have no compassion at all.
At the same time he have support by alot of swedes, people even tattoo images of him onto their body, its very weird, he is almost like a uncanny leader for some swedes, Not healthy in my view. Some say its like a cult-like figure.
There are some bold faced lied by this man in the interview including:
1. He claim the “strategy is working” – obviously not with one of the greatest death toll in the world! Sure strategy is working if your intent is just that.
2. He claim our hospital care have not been impacted, a highly disrespecful claim to the health care works that since mid march until late may there have witnessed almost a collapse in certain regions because of the overload of patients not to mention the cancellation of other health issues.
3 He claim Sweden have locked down perhaps more than others. The truth is that Sweden have become so affected because of the refusal to lock down!
4 He refuse to admit that real lock down work at the same time, obviously states that have locked down early have very few deaths compared to Sweden, it goes without saying that if you do not try to eradicate a virus, it will spread fast – just what happend in Sweden.
5 Because of Corona Sweden had a excess death toll that is one of the highest in europe.
USA Today had a great piece the other day about the failure in Sweden, fittingly the headline is: “Sweden hoped herd immunity would curb COVID-19. Don’t do what we did. It’s not working.” Google it and read that piece instead of this drivel of propaganda.
I think your input would be taken more seriously if you gave the impression that you’ve actually listened to what he has to say, and maybe you could refute what he has to say by providing some actual arguments or facts. This just seems like rambling.
For example you say that “The truth is that Sweden have become so affected because of the refusal to lock down!” which is highly contentious. I don’t know whether you’re right or wrong but you should at least explain why you think so. If “lockdown” vs “no lockdown” is the only important factor, why have Belgium done so badly? Why has New York suffered so much?
Precisely, well said.
He is a charlatan, blaming, lying and misleading, the economy is in the mire just like our neighbors or worse, we’ve done mass euthanasia, denial of healthcare to nearly 3000 people not just the elderly, no contact tracing, little or no testing, no masks.These callous morons still claim teenagers are not contagious, if a family member is infected and you don’t have symptoms, is OK to go out. Total insanity! First it was herd immunity, then no it is not, and now it is our strategy once again.Good god! When it comes to the numbers, airbrush reporting slow it down and reduce the numbers, we have reported very little in the summer because their officers have been on holiday, the cherry on top, he goes on vacation in the middle of the pandemic, we are at war, what general on the middle of a pandemic, takes nearly a two months holiday ? Meanwhile our people are dying !
Absolutely amazing then that they’ve kept their excess death rate below the UK, Spain and many other European countries! (actually Sweden and the concentration of populace in urban conurbations is more comparable to these countries than it’s ‘nearest neighbours’)
https://www.health.org.uk/n…
Even more when Imperial College, backed by the hysterical media predicted an 80,000 ‘tsunami’ of deaths in Sweden because they failed to lockdown. Other words used were ‘exponential’, and ‘exceptional’ …
Hasn’t happened has it? Not even a tenth of the predictions. Watch the excess death rates comparisons over the next year, then come back when you’ve regained your sanity.